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[PHP-DEV] Wake up

Posted by Florin Patan 
Florin Patan
[PHP-DEV] Wake up
September 11, 2013 12:50PM
Good day internals,



This morning I read something that's not fun:
https://twitter.com/ircmaxell/status/376027280562073600

Yet another good contributor leaves this community (not the whole PHP
community) because of the way things are done here.

It's true that this is an open source project and everyone can join
and leave whenever he/she wants but like Anthony says, this project
needs more leadership, more vision and definitely a better management.
Someone said that there's no one coming forward or trying to change
things, I may not be the right person to do this but at least maybe
I'll wake up someone who can take action and change things.

Here's some facts:
- a couple of months ago named parameters was a taboo subject, I know
because I've asked for it and everyone went silent, now we have a RFC
discussing it
- we had a RFC for autoloading functions but people just can't
understand how to provide feedback and at the end of the day it
resulted in a contributor leaving because of the murkiness here
- we have a bunch of RFCs waiting for feedback and being trolled to
infinity by people with their own agendas
- having a RFC to make a language change requires to have a patch
which if you don't know C and internals you got no chance of doing.
And if you do know C, PHP internals will drain the soul out of you
before doing something
- there's no clear objective for what PHP has / will have / will not
have / will not ever have.
- there were patches proposed by Facebook, and others, that are / were
rejected, delayed or ignored. Who heard of Facebook anyway, they have
just one website with a billion users probably running on a a couple
of Galaxy Note 3 and 2-3 iPhone 6 as a load balancers, my cat can do
better I tell you.

Where's Rasmus, the so called benevolent dictator, to actually dictate
and handle the internals? Yes Rasmus, you're making money out of PHP
yet I haven't seen a comment from you in the past months. Wikipedia
doesn't list you as hibernating.

Where Zend | The PHP Company? It's their name, no? They are making
money out of PHP brand, certifications and training? They've added the
opcode cache and that was the single biggest thing they've did in 7
years? Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Then there's that 'little' community of framework developers called
FIG which tried to do some standardization in the way things are done
in userland but guess what. It took 2 years or so for anyone here to
actually think we might really want to add PSR-0 to core. And people
here still have issues with that because it's not in the PHP 'open
spirit' (of the internals). Granted, FIG could do much better but hey,
they follow the example set here by you.

For me this PHP 'open spirit' is just a way of saying: I don't want to
have my head full of real issues so I'll just ignore them and let
others handle them.

Look at other languages. Take GO for example, which is done by the
other big noobs on the market called Google.

If you want, you can actually start and contribute to the language in
less that a week from learning the language! There's documentation
inside their sources (shocking! I know). There are pages talking about
their language decisions and why they do(n't) support certain things.
PHP has some rather prehistoric documentation about its internals and
that's it. Ok, PHP is written in C not PHP that's why it's harder to
contribute to it but it's not like there's documentation for internals
anyway. Or maybe, just maybe, they actually have some good language
design, who knows?

And I know what you'll say:
- yet another one making some smoke, lets ignore him;
- who cares about you complaining, PHP is still the most spread
language for servers
- PHP releases very often with new things for developers that they
want / use / need.

But you really expect this to continue forever? If so you are plain
ignorant and you shouldn't be part of this.

So, either you care about PHP and wake up or leave and let others take over.

Or better yet, ask someone like Facebook to take over and that's it.
Maybe they'll be interested in doing that since they had to rewrite
HHVM two times to get more performance out of PHP.
If you don't like Facebook, let Microsoft take over if they are
interested. They have contributors here, they have some programming
languages under their belt.

Or just dismiss the project completely and let the community take over.

But please, stop with these:
- nah, today is not a good day for this patch/ thread
- we have a leader already
- we have people contributing
- look ma' charts are growing, we are still ahead of others
- I'll just be against everything today as I didn't had enough sugar
in my coffee
attitudes as it's really not productive for developers and companies
that are still using PHP.



----
Florin Patan
https://github.com/dlsniper
http://www.linkedin.com/in/florinpatan

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Arvids Godjuks
Re: [PHP-DEV] Wake up
September 11, 2013 01:10PM
Hello everyone.

I just want to point out one thing about all that internals stuff and
remind about a good idea that has been surfacing a few times through the
years, but now I think it can actually get traction because of recent
problems.
It is based on the fact that there are too many people writing to internals
and mailing lists are not actually manageable at this level. I stopped
following all the stuff around a year ago, when I started to get like 15 to
30 maillist threads in my inbox daily (hundreds of mails) and too much
noise.
So, I think, it's time to move to a forum. Actual forum, that can be
managed, can have sections dedicated to certain stuff and has user
management that allows to mute or actually ban people who are not able to
behave, troll and do other kind's of stupid stuff that disrupts the work.
Many devs are already just ignoring this mailing list, so what is the point
of having it if relevant people just don't read it?
The list should remain of course, just to be used as a notification tool
for new important forum threads, RFC's, daily/weekly digest so that those
who have less time can still follow all the stuff in a compact manner.

Hell, I even volunteer to do integration stuff with mailing list, wiki and
other, just don't give me too much frontend stuff to do.

Arvids.
Dan Cryer
Re: [PHP-DEV] Wake up
September 11, 2013 01:10PM
Well said, Florin. :)

I'm not a core contributor, I never have been and probably never will be as
I don't know C... but I do follow internals quite keenly. It strikes me
that the biggest problem here is that there's no one entity to decide the
rules of the road, so everything (including the rules as to how things
should work,) has to be decided by committee - but the committee is too big
and too diverse to be useful.

If you look at other big open source projects, there's usually a person or
group that sets the ground rules for contributions and as long as everyone
plays by those rules, contribution is easy, rewarding and painless. Take
Blink for example, Google defined the rules but now Intel, Opera, and so on
all play nicely together with *very* little friction.

Blink seems to have a really good framework for contribution; Instead of X%
of contributors having to agree, they provide an "intent to implement"
framework to seek feedback on an idea, and an "intent to ship" framework to
seek approval from *three* relevant code owners - the people that know the
most about the section of code your patch affects. This seems to allow for
rapid innovation whilst protecting the codebase from fly-by patches.

Could something like that work for PHP? And, perhaps more importantly,
would the PHP core contributors be open to a person/group being appointed
to lay down these ground rules? It could work on a time-restricted basis
akin to the release manager role.
Johannes Schlüter
Re: [PHP-DEV] Wake up
September 11, 2013 02:40PM
On Wed, 2013-09-11 at 12:44 +0200, Florin Patan wrote:
> - having a RFC to make a language change requires to have a patch
> which if you don't know C and internals you got no chance of doing.

Well, so what should happen? An RFC without patch is accepted and then?
Somebody has to write a patch at some time. Whom of the people spending
their free time do you want to force to do that even though they might
not be interested in the feature?

Getting a patch first

* proves feasibility (yes, I love saying "It's just software
everything is possible" ... but then there's always a "BUT")
* shows technical consequences of a feature
* shows that there is somebody who is interested in developing AND
probably maintaining the patch (if somebody with a good idea can
not convince a single developer how will this be maintained?)
* allows users to actually test a feature and find problems which
might not be that obvious from theoretical examples

Yes writing a good patch can be lots of effort, and it might be dumped,
but for most features the initial patches aren't that big.

> And if you do know C, PHP internals will drain the soul out of you
> before doing something

Comparing PHP with other C projects I've seen the code isn't as bad as
many people make it sound. Sure we have some "weird" macros, but for
many of those: What's the alternative? (C++11 would allow some
improvements here and there but create a whole lot of other issues) Sure
we have some creepy areas: That happens, when a project grows over more
than 15 years, when sometimes not so good developers add things,
sometimes people try to optimise things for performance and often try to
keep a good BC story (even on internal APIs) But overall PHP is a
modular quite structured code base.


> - there were patches proposed by Facebook, and others, that are / were
> rejected, delayed or ignored. Who heard of Facebook anyway, they have
> just one website with a billion users probably running on a a couple
> of Galaxy Note 3 and 2-3 iPhone 6 as a load balancers, my cat can do
> better I tell you.

Facebook has active contributors who can push anything and know most
"core" people well enough. If anything they want is falling under the
floor they probably don't want it that much. Also mind: Facebook is
*one* usecase. Not everything which is good for them is necissarily good
for other users. And we have a multitude of users. Some want afast and
slick platform, some want many advanced features, some want it to be
simple. What we have to do is to find the "right" line ... oh, and mind
they are not using PHP but hipHop.


> Where Zend | The PHP Company? It's their name, no? They are making
> money out of PHP brand, certifications and training?

So can you. So do others.

> They've added the opcode cache and that was the single biggest thing
> they've did in 7 years? Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

They are active in fixing bugs and improving the performance and other
things. Sure they are not propose many new features but maybe (I'm an
outsider and can only speculate) they have noticed that with a fast
enough platform offering lots of language features you don't have to do
all things in the core but can build the environment around the core
language by building frameworks and tools and benefit the platform more
in that way. (while also making it simpler to develop and ease
participation as each framework user should now PHP and can therefore
help with the framework) but having said that: Ask Zend, not this list,
if you want something from Zend.


This all said: I agree that some structures here are bad and might be
improved but mind one thing: This community is quite open (everybody can
subscribe to this list and participate, and often git accounts are
thrown out relatively fast) which leads to a quite heterogeneous field
of people all having different interests and aims (as I mentioned above
already), you criticize this as "missing vision", one can see the same
thing as "too many independent visions" - everybody here has a reason
and goal of some kind for his/her contributions. Aligning them all the
time is tough and requires compromises. Constantly. But you won't find a
single vision which a majority would support and which wouldn't drive
too many contributors away while still deserving to be called a vision.

johannes



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Johannes Schlüter
Re: [PHP-DEV] Wake up
September 11, 2013 02:50PM
On Wed, 2013-09-11 at 13:59 +0300, Arvids Godjuks wrote:
> It is based on the fact that there are too many people writing to internals
> and mailing lists are not actually manageable at this level. I stopped
> following all the stuff around a year ago, when I started to get like 15 to
> 30 maillist threads in my inbox daily (hundreds of mails) and too much
> noise.

Get a better mail client and better mail filters.

> So, I think, it's time to move to a forum.

I hope this is a joke.

> Actual forum, that can be
> managed, can have sections dedicated to certain stuff and has user

We have multiple lists for different things.

> management that allows to mute or actually ban people who are not able to
> behave, troll and do other kind's of stupid stuff that disrupts the work.

We can ban people and have done that twice or so. PHP is open. If people
annoy you, you can filter them out.

> Many devs are already just ignoring this mailing list, so what is the point
> of having it if relevant people just don't read it?

People read what they consider interesting and ignore other threads, and
I assume this here will end in many ignores.

> The list should remain of course, just to be used as a notification tool
> for new important forum threads, RFC's, daily/weekly digest so that those
> who have less time can still follow all the stuff in a compact manner.

While loosing the structuring proper mail programs offer and having
media breaks - switching between forums and mail.

Just a simple examples what mail can do: I can write a mail to the list
an CC the relevant maintainer to draw his attention and he can directly
answer from there. Or I can xpost to bring a discussion from the "CVS"
list, about some "bad" commit to internals. Mail is open, forums are
locking in.

I haven't seen any useful forum. If Google/Bing/duckduck send me to a
forum it's always a pain to follow those completely unstructured
discussions (mail has In-Reply-to headers allowing a proper client to
sort/nest accordingly etc.)


johannes



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Hartmut Holzgraefe
Re: [PHP-DEV] Wake up
September 11, 2013 03:00PM
On 09/11/2013 02:46 PM, Johannes Schlüter wrote:

>> So, I think, it's time to move to a forum.
>
> I hope this is a joke.

so do I ...


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Daniel Basten
Re: [PHP-DEV] Wake up
September 11, 2013 03:10PM
cite: "I hope this is a joke."

i guess that is the stuff they where talking about.

greetings,

daniel


2013/9/11 Johannes Schlüter <[email protected]>

> On Wed, 2013-09-11 at 13:59 +0300, Arvids Godjuks wrote:
> > It is based on the fact that there are too many people writing to
> internals
> > and mailing lists are not actually manageable at this level. I stopped
> > following all the stuff around a year ago, when I started to get like 15
> to
> > 30 maillist threads in my inbox daily (hundreds of mails) and too much
> > noise.
>
> Get a better mail client and better mail filters.
>
> > So, I think, it's time to move to a forum.
>
> I hope this is a joke.
>
> > Actual forum, that can be
> > managed, can have sections dedicated to certain stuff and has user
>
> We have multiple lists for different things.
>
> > management that allows to mute or actually ban people who are not able to
> > behave, troll and do other kind's of stupid stuff that disrupts the work.
>
> We can ban people and have done that twice or so. PHP is open. If people
> annoy you, you can filter them out.
>
> > Many devs are already just ignoring this mailing list, so what is the
> point
> > of having it if relevant people just don't read it?
>
> People read what they consider interesting and ignore other threads, and
> I assume this here will end in many ignores.
>
> > The list should remain of course, just to be used as a notification tool
> > for new important forum threads, RFC's, daily/weekly digest so that those
> > who have less time can still follow all the stuff in a compact manner.
>
> While loosing the structuring proper mail programs offer and having
> media breaks - switching between forums and mail.
>
> Just a simple examples what mail can do: I can write a mail to the list
> an CC the relevant maintainer to draw his attention and he can directly
> answer from there. Or I can xpost to bring a discussion from the "CVS"
> list, about some "bad" commit to internals. Mail is open, forums are
> locking in.
>
> I haven't seen any useful forum. If Google/Bing/duckduck send me to a
> forum it's always a pain to follow those completely unstructured
> discussions (mail has In-Reply-to headers allowing a proper client to
> sort/nest accordingly etc.)
>
>
> johannes
>
>
>
> --
> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>
Patrick Schaaf
Re: [PHP-DEV] Wake up
September 11, 2013 03:10PM
On Wednesday 11 September 2013 15:00:33 Daniel Basten wrote:
> cite: "I hope this is a joke."
>
> i guess that is the stuff they where talking about.

Yeah. A forum would be much better, this whole thread could just be
moderated shut and invisible after the first message.

Also a forum would avoid the senseless full quoting of previous
messages.

just saying...
Patrick
Derick Rethans
Re: [PHP-DEV] Wake up
September 11, 2013 03:30PM
On Wed, 11 Sep 2013, Daniel Basten wrote:

> cite: "I hope this is a joke."
>
> i guess that is the stuff they where talking about.

Not following etiquette is one of the things that annoys people. And you
just violated list etiquette it by top-replying.

Derick

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Arvids Godjuks
Re: [PHP-DEV] Wake up
September 11, 2013 03:30PM
2013/9/11 Johannes Schlüter <[email protected]>

> On Wed, 2013-09-11 at 13:59 +0300, Arvids Godjuks wrote:
> > It is based on the fact that there are too many people writing to
> internals
> > and mailing lists are not actually manageable at this level. I stopped
> > following all the stuff around a year ago, when I started to get like 15
> to
> > 30 maillist threads in my inbox daily (hundreds of mails) and too much
> > noise.
>
> Get a better mail client and better mail filters.
>

Gmail, the best there is on the WEB. I have a lots of filters and labels
setup. Even in this case following the internals is possible if you do it
like full time. Sure, there are quite days, but seriously - when it hits
the fan - it's a mess.


>
> > So, I think, it's time to move to a forum.
>
> I hope this is a joke.
>

Why? At least you can just delete (or mark deleted with the ability to view
if needed) the off topic stuff, move relevant discussions to other threads..
Mailing list will stay in place, it will just get cleaner and be used for,
as it states in the name, for internal stuff. Not discussing stuff that
does not belong in here.


>
> > Actual forum, that can be
> > managed, can have sections dedicated to certain stuff and has user
>
> We have multiple lists for different things.
>

I know, been here for a long time. See above.


>
> > management that allows to mute or actually ban people who are not able to
> > behave, troll and do other kind's of stupid stuff that disrupts the work.
>
> We can ban people and have done that twice or so. PHP is open. If people
> annoy you, you can filter them out.
>

If I would do that, I'll probably filter out like 70% to 90% of the mails
coming from this list: in the long history of this mailing list I think
it's hard to find someone, who has not gone off topic or posted an
occasional annoying e-mail. Even me - that time I was ashamed and if that
was a forum - I'd just delete (or ask to delete) that senseless stupid
message.


>
> > Many devs are already just ignoring this mailing list, so what is the
> point
> > of having it if relevant people just don't read it?
>
> People read what they consider interesting and ignore other threads, and
> I assume this here will end in many ignores.
>

I care for named params, type hinting and some other stuff. I just dropped
following it when there were like 3 threads going on at the same time,
messages were pouring like crazy and the amount of text just got so
ridiculously big, that I just didn't had the time, ability and will to read
it all. I'd say that that threadnaught, if made on a forum, could be edited
and shrinked like 7 or 8 times for people actually to read something
constructive instead of that monster.


>
> > The list should remain of course, just to be used as a notification tool
> > for new important forum threads, RFC's, daily/weekly digest so that those
> > who have less time can still follow all the stuff in a compact manner.
>
> While loosing the structuring proper mail programs offer and having
> media breaks - switching between forums and mail.
>
> Just a simple examples what mail can do: I can write a mail to the list
> an CC the relevant maintainer to draw his attention and he can directly
> answer from there. Or I can xpost to bring a discussion from the "CVS"
> list, about some "bad" commit to internals. Mail is open, forums are
> locking in.
>
> I haven't seen any useful forum. If Google/Bing/duckduck send me to a
> forum it's always a pain to follow those completely unstructured
> discussions (mail has In-Reply-to headers allowing a proper client to
> sort/nest accordingly etc.)
>
>
Again, replacing the mailing list is not an option - it definitely has it's
uses. Also, it's a matter of integrating things and what people with
different rights are able to do.
What I'm saying here is that forum can, and if rules are enforced, will
decrease the mailing list noise a lot and push those senseless holy wars of
the mailing list. All the important stuff will still be here. Don't want to
read the forum - be my guest. Anything significant will be pushed into
internals anyway. All the raging and off topic will be left out on the
forum without disturbing your peace.
Forum also has the functionality to follow certain posts - meaning you will
get notifications, if you want to, about the stuff you want to follow.

I know, these are some big changes, need to get used to. But seriously, do
you really believe that going through hundreds of mails just to see what
points have been brought up is easy? People are loosing the context after
10-15 lengthy e-mails, just jump in without reading all the stuff (because
it's just back and forth most of the time with minor, sometimes important,
changes).


P.S. While I was writing this, 4 people posted. Only Patrick Schaaf posted
usefull information. If this would be a forum - those 3 posts should be
marked as off topic and hidden by default.
Johannes Schlüter
Re: [PHP-DEV] Wake up
September 11, 2013 03:40PM
On Wed, 2013-09-11 at 16:26 +0300, Arvids Godjuks wrote:
>
>
> P.S. While I was writing this, 4 people posted. Only Patrick Schaaf
> posted usefull information. If this would be a forum - those 3 posts
> should be marked as off topic and hidden by default.

I read this as "I want a censor"
Does this summarize what you want? - I'm clearly objecting to this.

I also don't agree with your other points and to keep the list silent I
won't further comment on that.

johannes



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Lester Caine
Re: [PHP-DEV] Wake up
September 11, 2013 04:00PM
Arvids Godjuks wrote:
> P.S. While I was writing this, 4 people posted. Only Patrick Schaaf posted
> usefull information. If this would be a forum - those 3 posts should be
> marked as off topic and hidden by default.

But who decides what is off topic.
There are genuine disagreements as to how PHP should move forward, if someone
has control of the communication channel they can influence what is seen.

I agree with the general sentiment of what is being said, but I recall Rasmus
saying he just wanted stability. I just want to get back to a system I can use ...

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Terence Copestake
Re: [PHP-DEV] Wake up
September 11, 2013 04:00PM
In less than 10 posts, this thread descended into people bashing each
other. Perhaps that's telling of something.

I won't comment on the point about forums or anything else, but a concern
brought up repeatedly both here and in various blogs is the lack of
direction or vision. There's a conflict between people who want to keep PHP
simple and accessible and people who want to make PHP into a professional
programming tool/environment, complete with all bells and whistles. With
everyone wanting something different and having different ideas on who the
target users are, what PHP's responsibilities and concerns should be, etc.,
it's going to be the classic struggle of trying to be everything for
everybody all at once.

Perhaps that issue really does need to be tackled head-on - and if a
consensus can't be reached, maybe PHP should branch off, having one version
(not necessarily a different codebase) for hobbyists, small sites and
beginners, alongside a professional branch for production environments and
developers who are willing and able to take off the training wheels and
make use of more advanced features, stop relying on the engine to let them
get away with bad habits, etc.

The other classic problem is old-timers who get stuck in their ways and
instantly reject the very notion of change because it will take them out of
their comfort zone - and discourage newcomers who might oust them from
their position of power. Perhaps there's a Machiavellian amongst us who can
help out with that one.
Arvids Godjuks
Re: [PHP-DEV] Wake up
September 11, 2013 04:00PM
2013/9/11 Johannes Schlüter <[email protected]>

> On Wed, 2013-09-11 at 16:26 +0300, Arvids Godjuks wrote:
> >
> >
> > P.S. While I was writing this, 4 people posted. Only Patrick Schaaf
> > posted usefull information. If this would be a forum - those 3 posts
> > should be marked as off topic and hidden by default.
>
> I read this as "I want a censor"
> Does this summarize what you want? - I'm clearly objecting to this.
>
> I also don't agree with your other points and to keep the list silent I
> won't further comment on that.
>
> johannes
>
>
Censorship is wrong word here even by a long shot. What community needs is
moderation. Now we have none here - anyone can derail any topic with ease
if he puts his mind to it. Been there, witnessed first hand.

Any big community needs moderation. Any big community needs a place where
all the off topic, holy wars and stuff like that can be directed to without
disturbing the peace. At least on the forum the topic started can aggregate
the feedback and put it into the first message, add changes over time.

I understand the negative moments about the forums, but that's the
management part. Communities manage their forums far better than companies,
it's just a matter of getting people involved, transparency and clear rules
defined.
Arvids Godjuks
Re: [PHP-DEV] Wake up
September 11, 2013 04:10PM
2013/9/11 Lester Caine <[email protected]>

> Arvids Godjuks wrote:
>
>> P.S. While I was writing this, 4 people posted. Only Patrick Schaaf posted
>> usefull information. If this would be a forum - those 3 posts should be
>> marked as off topic and hidden by default.
>>
>
> But who decides what is off topic.
> There are genuine disagreements as to how PHP should move forward, if
> someone has control of the communication channel they can influence what is
> seen.
>
> I agree with the general sentiment of what is being said, but I recall
> Rasmus saying he just wanted stability. I just want to get back to a system
> I can use ...


Well, I have to answer that, don't I? :)

As I see it, there never is a single moderator - it is usually a team. And
posts are never truly deleted, so if someone has done something bad, it can
be verified and action can be taken.
Off topic is when the content of the message does not relate to the initial
theme of the thread. I usually just go with my gut on these things - you
have to stop the derailment at some point, or you can be forced to clean up
quite a lot. Many times just a reminder to stay on track from the moderator
does the trick - you leave the messages where they are in that case and no
one is hurt.

It's not black and white of course, depends on the situation.

We all want stability, I for once want it badly, because I saw how decent
RFC's and proposals were just shredded to pieces and people just gone "f**c
it, i'm out". We need a filter. That is what i'm proposing.
Arvids Godjuks
Re: [PHP-DEV] Wake up
September 11, 2013 04:20PM
2013/9/11 Terence Copestake <[email protected]>

> In less than 10 posts, this thread descended into people bashing each
> other. Perhaps that's telling of something.
>
> I won't comment on the point about forums or anything else, but a concern
> brought up repeatedly both here and in various blogs is the lack of
> direction or vision. There's a conflict between people who want to keep PHP
> simple and accessible and people who want to make PHP into a professional
> programming tool/environment, complete with all bells and whistles. With
> everyone wanting something different and having different ideas on who the
> target users are, what PHP's responsibilities and concerns should be, etc.,
> it's going to be the classic struggle of trying to be everything for
> everybody all at once.
>
> Perhaps that issue really does need to be tackled head-on - and if a
> consensus can't be reached, maybe PHP should branch off, having one version
> (not necessarily a different codebase) for hobbyists, small sites and
> beginners, alongside a professional branch for production environments and
> developers who are willing and able to take off the training wheels and
> make use of more advanced features, stop relying on the engine to let them
> get away with bad habits, etc.
>
> The other classic problem is old-timers who get stuck in their ways and
> instantly reject the very notion of change because it will take them out of
> their comfort zone - and discourage newcomers who might oust them from
> their position of power. Perhaps there's a Machiavellian amongst us who can
> help out with that one.
>

Agree on all.
Especially on the last part, seems to me that I just hit that exact spot.
To me, as an observer mostly, something has to be done. Developers can't do
it all by themselves and I don't see that many people willing to step up
and do stuff. I'm not only proposing, but also willing to do my part - I'm
good with organizing stuff, coordinating and did my share of forum
moderation for years.
Florin Patan
Re: [PHP-DEV] Wake up
September 11, 2013 04:20PM
On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 2:35 PM, Johannes Schlüter
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 2013-09-11 at 12:44 +0200, Florin Patan wrote:
>> - having a RFC to make a language change requires to have a patch
>> which if you don't know C and internals you got no chance of doing.
>
> Well, so what should happen? An RFC without patch is accepted and then?
> Somebody has to write a patch at some time. Whom of the people spending
> their free time do you want to force to do that even though they might
> not be interested in the feature?
>
> Getting a patch first
>
> * proves feasibility (yes, I love saying "It's just software
> everything is possible" ... but then there's always a "BUT")
> * shows technical consequences of a feature
> * shows that there is somebody who is interested in developing AND
> probably maintaining the patch (if somebody with a good idea can
> not convince a single developer how will this be maintained?)
> * allows users to actually test a feature and find problems which
> might not be that obvious from theoretical examples
>
> Yes writing a good patch can be lots of effort, and it might be dumped,
> but for most features the initial patches aren't that big.

Agreed and I respect that but if PHP doesn't provide the framework to
enable people to contribute to it then how do you expect to have
someone to maintain it? If it's a pita to do something simple, as you
say, then there's really no incentive for people to help out. And
coding around like a headless chicken can and will result in potential
bugs that might not be obvious even when people will review it then
what?

As a note, I've asked Sara and Nikita for help with the return type
hinting for functions/methods patch before the official RFC, which I
hope I'll be able to finish sometime soon but if a RFC like that would
be approved and posted on a roadmap then a core dev or a newcomer
(like me) pick it up and try to work on it. When deadline for feature
freeze comes and some approved RFCs are not done then the devs should
implement them then proceed with bug fixing and testing like usual. It
would mean a larger feature freeze window and people willing to work
on features that they don't propose.

Look at the current PDO stack. Does anyone maintain it?
Yes/No/Maybe... What will happen with the changes added by Anthony in
5.5 now that he left? Someone will assume the role of maintainer for
them? In a good open-source way there should be a maintainer that's
named by the group but everyone should be able to fix them given the
right tools.

There's also little to no documentation on how to setup your work
environment for developing something for PHP, I've started to do
something about that but it's not like I'm a experienced user in
this....

>> And if you do know C, PHP internals will drain the soul out of you
>> before doing something
>
> Comparing PHP with other C projects I've seen the code isn't as bad as
> many people make it sound. Sure we have some "weird" macros, but for
> many of those: What's the alternative? (C++11 would allow some
> improvements here and there but create a whole lot of other issues) Sure
> we have some creepy areas: That happens, when a project grows over more
> than 15 years, when sometimes not so good developers add things,
> sometimes people try to optimise things for performance and often try to
> keep a good BC story (even on internal APIs) But overall PHP is a
> modular quite structured code base.

Funny thing is that I'm comparing the C code of PHP with code written
in PHP, take Symfony2 or Zend Framework 2 or all the other new
libraries and frameworks since 1-2 years ago. For most of them, anyone
can contribute to code in a couple of hours for minor / medium things
and for more complex ones it can take more. In PHP you don't have a
clear structure, you don't have documentation in sources, there's no
documentation on how to follow the execution of PHP from where it
starts to parse a file to where it starts to write the output to the
webserver. You have to dig it out from various sources scattered over
the Internet and from some old articles from 2006.

And yes, once you get to understand something about the architecture
of PHP itself then you can start to say it's ok but the learning curve
is very big.

>
>
>> - there were patches proposed by Facebook, and others, that are / were
>> rejected, delayed or ignored. Who heard of Facebook anyway, they have
>> just one website with a billion users probably running on a a couple
>> of Galaxy Note 3 and 2-3 iPhone 6 as a load balancers, my cat can do
>> better I tell you.
>
> Facebook has active contributors who can push anything and know most
> "core" people well enough. If anything they want is falling under the
> floor they probably don't want it that much. Also mind: Facebook is
> *one* usecase. Not everything which is good for them is necissarily good
> for other users. And we have a multitude of users. Some want afast and
> slick platform, some want many advanced features, some want it to be
> simple. What we have to do is to find the "right" line ... oh, and mind
> they are not using PHP but hipHop.

Facebook is one example that quickly came to my mind. Indeed some of
their use cases might not be applicable to the majority of users.


>> Where Zend | The PHP Company? It's their name, no? They are making
>> money out of PHP brand, certifications and training?
>
> So can you. So do others.

I thought I can't use the PHP name without the PHP permission. Also
I'm making money out of it as programmer but the money was not the
point.
>
>> They've added the opcode cache and that was the single biggest thing
>> they've did in 7 years? Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
>
> They are active in fixing bugs and improving the performance and other
> things. Sure they are not propose many new features but maybe (I'm an
> outsider and can only speculate) they have noticed that with a fast
> enough platform offering lots of language features you don't have to do
> all things in the core but can build the environment around the core
> language by building frameworks and tools and benefit the platform more
> in that way. (while also making it simpler to develop and ease
> participation as each framework user should now PHP and can therefore
> help with the framework) but having said that: Ask Zend, not this list,
> if you want something from Zend.

I'm asking this list to consider either asking Zend or some other
entity to be more involved in actual language decisions / roadmaps.

Do you know what will PHP 5.6 have in it? How about 5.7? Will there
even be one? Or we'll finally start thinking of having Zend Engine 3 +
PHP 6?

>
>
> This all said: I agree that some structures here are bad and might be
> improved but mind one thing: This community is quite open (everybody can
> subscribe to this list and participate, and often git accounts are
> thrown out relatively fast) which leads to a quite heterogeneous field
> of people all having different interests and aims (as I mentioned above
> already), you criticize this as "missing vision", one can see the same
> thing as "too many independent visions" - everybody here has a reason
> and goal of some kind for his/her contributions. Aligning them all the
> time is tough and requires compromises. Constantly. But you won't find a
> single vision which a majority would support and which wouldn't drive
> too many contributors away while still deserving to be called a vision.
>
> johannes
>
>

But maybe that's the point. We should have only one vision not none or
many. Look at GO, Python, Ruby, Java, C or whatever. They seem to be
fine with that, no?

Look at the list here:
http://www.reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/1iw0cj/what_would_you_change_about_php_if_you_could/cb9rzw4
I think all of them would be nice to have in PHP for us, the common
PHP programmers, and maybe for the core devs here as well.

Even with that list in mind, there's no clear way to do it. The core
devs are so few that they are, for good reason, against a total
redoing of PHP. The new people can't turn into core devs unless
someone holds their hands for a while and then they either leave, see
Anthony, @lsmith and others, either don't want to change anything
anymore either start not to care.

And just look how off-topic this went into discussing for the nth time
if PHP should move to a forum instead of mailing list. If there should
be moderation in that or not. If core devs would be happier if noobs
wouldn't interfere with their work and so on. Having a clear
structure, a good framework to enable people to contribute would solve
maybe half of them only but would still be a good chunk of issues that
wouldn't need to be addressed by core devs in the first place anyway.

----
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Matthieu Napoli
Re: [PHP-DEV] Wake up
September 11, 2013 04:20PM
Le 11/09/2013 16:06, Arvids Godjuks a écrit :
> 2013/9/11 Lester Caine <[email protected]>
>
>> Arvids Godjuks wrote:
>>
>>> P.S. While I was writing this, 4 people posted. Only Patrick Schaaf posted
>>> usefull information. If this would be a forum - those 3 posts should be
>>> marked as off topic and hidden by default.
>>>
>>
>> But who decides what is off topic.
>> There are genuine disagreements as to how PHP should move forward, if
>> someone has control of the communication channel they can influence what is
>> seen.
>>
>> I agree with the general sentiment of what is being said, but I recall
>> Rasmus saying he just wanted stability. I just want to get back to a system
>> I can use ...
>
>
> Well, I have to answer that, don't I? :)
>
> As I see it, there never is a single moderator - it is usually a team. And
> posts are never truly deleted, so if someone has done something bad, it can
> be verified and action can be taken.
> Off topic is when the content of the message does not relate to the initial
> theme of the thread. I usually just go with my gut on these things - you
> have to stop the derailment at some point, or you can be forced to clean up
> quite a lot. Many times just a reminder to stay on track from the moderator
> does the trick - you leave the messages where they are in that case and no
> one is hurt.
>
> It's not black and white of course, depends on the situation.
>
> We all want stability, I for once want it badly, because I saw how decent
> RFC's and proposals were just shredded to pieces and people just gone "f**c
> it, i'm out". We need a filter. That is what i'm proposing.
>

That's not the first time I mention it, but Discourse
(http://www.discourse.org/) seems like the kind of forum software
appropriate for some of these problems.

It allows:

- branching off conversations (you all know how this is one of the
biggest problem here)

- community moderation: several people flagging the same reply -> it
gets hidden

- good online interface: I am on the point of view of the readers of
this mailing list, and reading that list is *very* difficult. It's
either you subscribe and let you personal email get bombarded (we are
not all on gmail), either you use a weird mirror that mixes up all
emails and don't let you distinguish threads and discussions

- easy login (openid): again, if you want to contribute from times to
times to the discussion, you have to subscribe, and that's opening the
gates of hell

They are also working on having it work like a mailing list, i.e.
getting all the posts as mail, and, I think, be able to reply by email also.

Just a reminder: do you know stackoverflow? How it changed the game with
finding answers to technical questions on the web. Well discourse is by
on of the authors, with the same spirit. It seems like very good
software, very far from what "forum" comes to everybody's mind, and
quite appropriate to *some* of the problems here.

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Lester Caine
Re: [PHP-DEV] Wake up
September 11, 2013 04:20PM
Terence Copestake wrote:
> There's a conflict between people who want to keep PHP
> simple and accessible and people who want to make PHP into a professional
> programming tool/environment, complete with all bells and whistles.

You see that is part of the problem here. What proportion of the internet is
powered by the current and older versions of PHP? What is 'so wrong' that it's
not already a 'professional tool'? I've been using PHP since just before PHP5
was finalised and I don't find anything wrong with the code I produce using it,
and I am making 'professional' websites and services for 'professionals'.

OK - perhaps I am an 'old timer' stuck in my ways, but programming used to be
fun ... nowadays it's a chore trying to re-write perfectly functional code so
that it jumps through the hoops of what someone else thinks is 'professional' :(

Yes a 'classic' PHP would be nice, rolling back before 'e_strict' and then I
could get back to creating new code rather than fire fighting old stuff.

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Florin Patan
Re: [PHP-DEV] Wake up
September 11, 2013 04:30PM
> That's not the first time I mention it, but Discourse
> (http://www.discourse.org/) seems like the kind of forum software
> appropriate for some of these problems.
>
> It allows:
>
> - branching off conversations (you all know how this is one of the biggest
> problem here)
>
> - community moderation: several people flagging the same reply -> it gets
> hidden
>
> - good online interface: I am on the point of view of the readers of this
> mailing list, and reading that list is *very* difficult. It's either you
> subscribe and let you personal email get bombarded (we are not all on
> gmail), either you use a weird mirror that mixes up all emails and don't let
> you distinguish threads and discussions
>
> - easy login (openid): again, if you want to contribute from times to times
> to the discussion, you have to subscribe, and that's opening the gates of
> hell
>
> They are also working on having it work like a mailing list, i.e. getting
> all the posts as mail, and, I think, be able to reply by email also.
>
> Just a reminder: do you know stackoverflow? How it changed the game with
> finding answers to technical questions on the web. Well discourse is by on
> of the authors, with the same spirit. It seems like very good software, very
> far from what "forum" comes to everybody's mind, and quite appropriate to
> *some* of the problems here.
>

Please move this discussion to another thread / topic as this is off-topic.

----
Florin Patan
https://github.com/dlsniper
http://www.linkedin.com/in/florinpatan

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Lester Caine
Re: [PHP-DEV] Wake up
September 11, 2013 05:00PM
Philip Sturgeon wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 10:22 AM, Lester Caine <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Terence Copestake wrote:
>>>
>>> There's a conflict between people who want to keep PHP
>>> simple and accessible and people who want to make PHP into a professional
>>> programming tool/environment, complete with all bells and whistles.
>>
>>
>> You see that is part of the problem here. What proportion of the internet is
>> powered by the current and older versions of PHP? What is 'so wrong' that
>> it's not already a 'professional tool'? I've been using PHP since just
>> before PHP5 was finalised and I don't find anything wrong with the code I
>> produce using it, and I am making 'professional' websites and services for
>> 'professionals'.
>
> There is nothing "so wrong" that it is not already a professional
> tool, obviously, but it can certainly be improved. Adding short array
> syntax, short-ternary, array dereferencing, variadics, etc are all
> just taking the code that people write and simplifying it, requiring
> developers to write less code to achieve the same result.
>
> Looking at PHP change through the "well it already works so..."
> approach is exactly the opposite of what should be done: make small,
> careful, reasonable improvements that help developers write less code
> so they can spend more time with their families or at the pub.

If only that was actually the case!

All the 'small, careful, reasonable improvements' that have been made so far
have created a difficult to manage upgrade path from code that probably
originated in PHP4 days and worked fine in PHP5 up as far as 5.2 but now
requires open heart surgery to get it clean and capable in newer ones.
All right most of that code should probably be chucked on a bonfire, but it is
running peoples live businesses now, and when the infrastructure changes and
that stops working they are lost as far as fixing the problems!

For a long time I was quite happy simply to write code that was backwards
compatible with PHP4 as that was what the bulk of ISP's provided even though I'd
never used 4. Nowadays we are getting slated if we aren't using 5.5 when our
clients can't even use PHP5.3 yet. And don't say "There is not a problem running
old code as long as the server is configured right" ... there are enough holes
that give a white screen and invariable at least one of them exists in the sites
I still have to convert. And I'm converting to a platform that the rest of you
have already abandoned for the next generation.

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Florian Anderiasch
Re: [PHP-DEV] Wake up
September 11, 2013 05:00PM
On 09/11/2013 02:35 PM, Johannes Schlüter wrote:
> On Wed, 2013-09-11 at 12:44 +0200, Florin Patan wrote:
>> - having a RFC to make a language change requires to have a patch
>> which if you don't know C and internals you got no chance of doing.
>
> Well, so what should happen? An RFC without patch is accepted and then?
> Somebody has to write a patch at some time. Whom of the people spending
> their free time do you want to force to do that even though they might
> not be interested in the feature?

That's a point I keep on hearing on this list (and I actually agree) -
but how do other projects manage that?

Is there a core team that's more inclined to "step up" and just clean a
mess someone else left or handling cruft that somehow pops up?

Unless you have an entity (non-profit or for-profit) that's handling
everyday chores/tasks/steering the vision and demands from its members
to do stuff they don't take up on your own... I don't see how it could
be done in another way :)

Greetings,
Florian


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Johannes Schlüter
Re: [PHP-DEV] Wake up
September 11, 2013 05:20PM
On Wed, 2013-09-11 at 16:15 +0200, Florin Patan wrote:
> There's also little to no documentation on how to setup your work
> environment for developing something for PHP, I've started to do
> something about that but it's not like I'm a experienced user in
> this....

Issue 1: There is no single work environment. People use different
operating systems, compilers, debuggers, editors, ...
http://php.net/git.php lists some things developers need,
php.net/install tells how to compile it.

Yes, that can be streamlined, but the tool choices above we can't make
and a tutorial on gdb also is out of scope.
I was once writing a few chapters for http://php.net/internals2 but that
got somewhat stalled, this should be the place to document PHPisms
though.

> Funny thing is that I'm comparing the C code of PHP with code written
> in PHP, take Symfony2 or Zend Framework 2 or all the other new
> libraries and frameworks since 1-2 years ago. For most of them, anyone
> can contribute to code in a couple of hours for minor / medium things
> and for more complex ones it can take more.

Yes that is funny ;-)

PHP and C are different languages, they use different paradigms and have
different approaches. If you have no experience in C it can be steep, if
you have you will recognize many things.

put in another way: For contributing to symfony you have to know the
service container structures to contribute, for PHP you have to know
your way around macros and function pointer tables.


> In PHP you don't have a
> clear structure, you don't have documentation in sources, there's no
> documentation on how to follow the execution of PHP from where it
> starts to parse a file to where it starts to write the output to the
> webserver. You have to dig it out from various sources scattered over
> the Internet and from some old articles from 2006.
>
> And yes, once you get to understand something about the architecture
> of PHP itself then you can start to say it's ok but the learning curve
> is very big.


You have to know that the "Zend Engine" in Zend/ drives it and decipher
SAPI as Server API. Within Zend/ most files give a good indication on
what they do, as do the directory names in SAPI.

And how steep the learning curve is, I don't know. It took me a night
about 10 years ago from my first look at the engine source till I had
operator overloading implemented in a simple way. (I was lucky so as
zend_operators.h sounded quite lie a place I had to touch, and
zend_lanuage_scanner.l/parser.y was easy enough too)
I wouldn't expect anybody to come in and being able to directly
implement anonymous classes or such. The learning path imo should be to
first write an extension for some lib or something. doing this is
relatively well documented in books and examples etc. but gives some
entrance and from there dig further.

> >> Where Zend | The PHP Company? It's their name, no? They are making
> >> money out of PHP brand, certifications and training?
> >
> > So can you. So do others.
>
> I thought I can't use the PHP name without the PHP permission. Also
> I'm making money out of it as programmer but the money was not the
> point.

It's complicated but PHP is no registered trademark. I also know that
The PHP Group, which holds PHP's rights, approved different name usages.

Not 100% matching but related:
http://www.php.net/license/index.php#faq-lic
http://www.php.net/download-logos.php

> I'm asking this list to consider either asking Zend or some other
> entity to be more involved in actual language decisions / roadmaps.

Why should I ask a company with their business interest to do that?

> Do you know what will PHP 5.6 have in it? How about 5.7? Will there
> even be one? Or we'll finally start thinking of having Zend Engine 3 +
> PHP 6?

Well, a roadmap would be nice. But that requires that we can actually
rely on it. Mind that most here are doing this (partly) besides their
jobs. There are so many things that can happen that people promise to
work on stuff but then change jobs, get a girl/boyfriend, a child,
illness, ...

Other projects make stronger promises by having companies which can
"replace" people, but PHP is driven by people not companies (in my
personal opinion for good reasons)

And even with languages where companies are stronger involved roadmaps
mean little already: Java modules were pushed from Java7 to Java 8, and
now were pushed to Java 9. In C++ modules were dropped from C++0x (which
became C++11) and won't be there for C++14 unlike, hopefully, Concepts
which were planned for C++0x, too.


> But maybe that's the point. We should have only one vision not none or
> many. Look at GO, Python, Ruby, Java, C or whatever. They seem to be
> fine with that, no?

Go has the vision "Do what Google needs"
Java has the vision "Do what Oracle wants" (yes, there is the JCP)
C development is really slow and C99 is still barely available and used.
For Python and Ruby I now too little to comment.


> Look at the list here:
> http://www.reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/1iw0cj/what_would_you_change_about_php_if_you_could/cb9rzw4
> I think all of them would be nice to have in PHP for us, the common
> PHP programmers, and maybe for the core devs here as well.
[...]

A major issue we have is that our userbase and developer base are quite
distinct groups. And this will always be the case due to language etc.
reasons I mentioned above.
To make this a it more subjective: As I mentioned in the Zend comment in
my previous mail I think going to userland and innovate there is way
more useful than doing everything in core. In Frameworks ever user has
the required knowledge to innovate and contribute.
PHP has to be a base foundation which is reliable and stable so people
can easily update and use it. Things added to PHP should be clearly for
performance or as it really enables something that otherwise can't be
done. For everything else there are frameworks.
And now you know my vision, for which I'd rather kick out things than
add many of the recent RFCs. ;)

johannes



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Jordi Boggiano
Re: [PHP-DEV] Wake up
September 11, 2013 05:30PM
As I answered on Anthony's post, there is not much need for waking up,
or moving the talks to a forum, or discussing the problem to death here.

The problem is clear, and everyone involved on this mailing list is
aware of it to some degree. The only way this can be solved is if the
offenders self-censor and think twice before posting emails. This thread
is yet another example of abuse IMO. Every reply here is wasting a ton
of people's time, and we end up discussing discussion instead of making
progress.

For having been involved in the Rust community recently, I find that
their Code of Conduct [1] is great, and if everyone tries to follow it
discussions remain on point and civilized.

[1] https://github.com/mozilla/rust/wiki/Note-development-policy#conduct

I wish everyone would just take a deep breath after reading something
that makes them angry, and take another long one before hitting send
with a hurtful reply. If someone acts like a dick send them a link to a
code of conduct, either publicly or privately, and *ignore* everything
else they said. It's been internet wisdom for ages to *not feed the trolls*.

So if you want to do something useful: draft an RFC with a clear code of
conduct, put it to a vote, promote it. And if you don't agree see above,
take a deep breath and do not waste time answering this email to tell me
an idiot.

Cheers

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Levi Morrison
Re: [PHP-DEV] Wake up
September 11, 2013 06:10PM
> So if you want to do something useful: draft an RFC with a clear code of
> conduct, put it to a vote, promote it. And if you don't agree see above,
> take a deep breath and do not waste time answering this email to tell me
> an idiot.


Typically RFC's have been about the PHP language and not about the process
of creating the language. I suppose an RFC could function as code of
conduct, though.. I will work on a draft but it will take some time to
create a good code of conduct specific to our needs.
André Rømcke
Re: [PHP-DEV] Wake up
September 11, 2013 06:30PM
On Sep 11, 2013, at 15:52 , Terence Copestake <[email protected]>
wrote:

> (.. ) a concern
> brought up repeatedly both here and in various blogs is the lack of
> direction or vision. There's a conflict between people who want to keep PHP
> simple and accessible and people who want to make PHP into a professional
> programming tool/environment, complete with all bells and whistles. With
> everyone wanting something different and having different ideas on who the
> target users are, what PHP's responsibilities and concerns should be, etc..,
> it's going to be the classic struggle of trying to be everything for
> everybody all at once.


Won't solve the perceived lack of vision, but the conflict could potentially be solved by modeling php language standardization after how they do it at Ecma, w3c or iso.
For instance: Let php-internals be as is, Internal stuff in PHP engine and announcements of rfc's for it, but move out the organization of standardizing the language.

1. The people involved in standardization should be representatives of the different implementations of PHP language.
2. Accepting changes to the language would requirer that at least one implementation have it working behind a compile/runtime flag*
3. Language Tests should be shared and be part of the standardization effort
4. The PHP language standardization body should always allow some variation on how much a implementation helps the user by default

# Example: Argument and return type hinting**

Specification on this can define two modes of operation:
1. Fatal error on wrong type
2. Strict error on type conversion, and Fatal error on type conversion with data loss

HPHP could then use mode 1 by default, while PHP uses 2 by default (and 2 with strict errors disabled in production).

This was not intended as a flame, best regards
André R.
eZ Systems



* For anyone involved in web development you might know how messy css vendor prefixes made the web, forcing them to be behind compile/runtime flags would avoid this
** Just an example, ignore the details please
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Ulf Wendel
Re: [PHP-DEV] Wake up
September 11, 2013 08:20PM
Am 11.09.2013 14:46, schrieb Johannes Schlüter:
> On Wed, 2013-09-11 at 13:59 +0300, Arvids Godjuks wrote:
>> So, I think, it's time to move to a forum.
>
> I hope this is a joke.

+1. A forum is a no go for me.

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Madara Uchiha
Re: [PHP-DEV] Wake up
September 11, 2013 09:30PM
A forum is merely a medium, and even if the community would be able to
moderate message, I still foresee a problem.

As long as the community remains hostile to newcomers, moderation
would be hostile as well. Take for example the situation on Stack
Overflow's PHP tag. Hardened by a tidal wave of crap content, PHP high
rep users (a.k.a. "The Moderators"), aggressively close and delete bad
content, often without giving OP indication of his wrongdoing,
sometimes via automated comments.

It's not their (ours, I'm part of it) fault, that's a natural process
that happens when too much low content material arrives at a
moderator's doorstep.

However, the problem in my eyes remains the lack of proper leadership
and vision. Even open source projects need a team head and/or a
leader, you know. Even mailing lists needs to have an *active*
moderator, that's capable of making the cool, hard decisions without
pushing his own agendas. As long as internals don't have any of those
(You may say you have them, I don't see it in practice, sorry. A
moderator and a leader needs to show presence and authority).

I'm mostly a lurker, reading around whenever possible, rarely
answering. However, you're really off-track here with trying to come
up with technical solutions such as a new medium for internals, or
some sort of system. The community itself needs to change. If it
doesn't do that, nothing will ever change, regardless of how you
change your color scheme.

On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 9:12 PM, Ulf Wendel <[email protected]> wrote:
> Am 11.09.2013 14:46, schrieb Johannes Schlüter:
>>
>> On Wed, 2013-09-11 at 13:59 +0300, Arvids Godjuks wrote:
>>>
>>> So, I think, it's time to move to a forum.
>>
>>
>> I hope this is a joke.
>
>
> +1. A forum is a no go for me.
>
>
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Johannes Schlüter
Re: [PHP-DEV] Wake up
September 11, 2013 11:30PM
On Wed, 2013-09-11 at 21:27 +0200, Madara Uchiha wrote:
> As long as the community remains hostile to newcomers, moderation
> would be hostile as well.

Sorry, I don't believe in this "hostile" argument. Yes people have
strong opinions and aren't not necessarily diplomatic while stating them
(for all different reasons like Ego, care for the product, language
barriers, cultural background, pure opinion, ...) but still we gave out
35 new git accounts (not only php-src) within the first 9 months of this
year.

Internals can be loud and harsh, as it is about the core which is
important for many, but look to the side, like pecl-dev list or
#php.pecl they are mostly helpful towards people who try to learn about
php-src. (at least I hope so, while trying to answer as many beginner
questions as I can in my available time)

johannes



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Florin Patan
Re: [PHP-DEV] Wake up
September 11, 2013 11:40PM
>On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Madara Uchiha <[email protected]> wrote:
> A forum is merely a medium, and even if the community would be able to
> moderate message, I still foresee a problem.
>
> As long as the community remains hostile to newcomers, moderation
> would be hostile as well. Take for example the situation on Stack
> Overflow's PHP tag. Hardened by a tidal wave of crap content, PHP high
> rep users (a.k.a. "The Moderators"), aggressively close and delete bad
> content, often without giving OP indication of his wrongdoing,
> sometimes via automated comments.
>
> It's not their (ours, I'm part of it) fault, that's a natural process
> that happens when too much low content material arrives at a
> moderator's doorstep.
>
> However, the problem in my eyes remains the lack of proper leadership
> and vision. Even open source projects need a team head and/or a
> leader, you know. Even mailing lists needs to have an *active*
> moderator, that's capable of making the cool, hard decisions without
> pushing his own agendas. As long as internals don't have any of those
> (You may say you have them, I don't see it in practice, sorry. A
> moderator and a leader needs to show presence and authority).
>
> I'm mostly a lurker, reading around whenever possible, rarely
> answering. However, you're really off-track here with trying to come
> up with technical solutions such as a new medium for internals, or
> some sort of system. The community itself needs to change. If it
> doesn't do that, nothing will ever change, regardless of how you
> change your color scheme.

First, I didn't said anything about attitude to new comers. For me it
was quite well and people offered to help out in solving issues.

Second, if you read the posting rules of this mailing list, top
posting is one of those things that you should avoid.

Given the following factors:
- lack of clear language scope: yes we build webpages but guess what,
we aren't doing blogs for a long time ago. if you dimiss Wikipedia,
Facebook and some other sily sites in the top 100 hits / month that
use PHP you are given a whole slew of startups and some of them even
businesses which are using PHP. Some of them might even prefer to have
in-house developed tools but then for those tools PHP says: sorry, you
should check another language if you want this or that. It's simply
frustrating :)
- lack of a clear roadmap: as I said earlier, can someone really tell
what's in the next two versions of php from now
- lack of clear authority - who can and should steer discussions to a
desired path and stop trolling (even by core devs)
- lack of actual feedback from the community on topics/rfcs: there's
always a 'but people need/want/don't need/don't want' with no concrete
way to really gauge what the community position really is
- lack of clear documentation about the internals: you really can't
tell me that the docs out there are clear because I did a bunch of
searching for them and I'm pretty good at finding stuff
- personal feelings on a subject instead or rational ones

Conclusion, it's the process that has issues and people are drove off
sooner or later by it and that's what we should prevent and improve.



@Jordi
Internals mailing lists rules say to break silence when you have
something to say and that's what I've did. Like it or not this is the
truth and if everyone knows it and nobody says it / does something to
change things, even if it's just starting a discussion as useless as
this, then maybe the community members shouldn't be part of the
decision process of that community.


Kind regards
----
Florin Patan
https://github.com/dlsniper
http://www.linkedin.com/in/florinpatan

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