[PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON

WTF is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM?

This has to be THE most asked question by new php developers when they
come across it. Can we please change the token name to T_DOUBLE_COLON
so I don't have to hear about it constantly?

Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it is
asked. it's worth it.

Chad

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 20:47, admin <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it is
> asked. it's worth it.

Someone disagreeing with your request to change something does not
correlate to their doing "enough PHP support." There are many reasons
to disagree with a change request, no matter how much any one person
thinks of it as a necessity or an improvement.

--
</Daniel P. Brown>
Dedicated Servers, Cloud and Cloud Hybrid Solutions, VPS, Hosting
(866-) 725-4321
http://www.parasane.net/

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

On 10/29/2010 7:47 PM, admin wrote:
> WTF is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM?
>
> This has to be THE most asked question by new php developers when they come across it.
> Can we please change the token name to T_DOUBLE_COLON so I don't have to hear about it
> constantly?
>
> Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it is asked. it's worth it.

Is it that hard to at least review the mailing list archives before ranting?

At least posters would sound like they have educated themselves on why what
came to be, and argue sensibly for changes.

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

On 10/29/2010 08:11 PM, William A. Rowe Jr. wrote:
> On 10/29/2010 7:47 PM, admin wrote:
>
>> WTF is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM?
>>
>> This has to be THE most asked question by new php developers when they come across it.
>> Can we please change the token name to T_DOUBLE_COLON so I don't have to hear about it
>> constantly?
>>
>> Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it is asked. it's worth it.
>>
> Is it that hard to at least review the mailing list archives before ranting?
>
> At least posters would sound like they have educated themselves on why what
> came to be, and argue sensibly for changes.
>
>
obviously the old arguments didn't work, time to start anew.

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

On Oct 29, 2010, at 6:17 PM, admin wrote:

> On 10/29/2010 08:11 PM, William A. Rowe Jr. wrote:
>> On 10/29/2010 7:47 PM, admin wrote:
>>
>>> WTF is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM?
>>>
>>> This has to be THE most asked question by new php developers when they come across it.
>>> Can we please change the token name to T_DOUBLE_COLON so I don't have to hear about it
>>> constantly?
>>>
>>> Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it is asked. it's worth it.
>>>
>> Is it that hard to at least review the mailing list archives before ranting?
>>
>> At least posters would sound like they have educated themselves on why what
>> came to be, and argue sensibly for changes.
>>
>>
> obviously the old arguments didn't work, time to start anew.
>

using a name like "admin" in your email headers isn't going to be very receptive.

For what its worth its Hebrew for double colon. I'm all for the change, will see what I can do next week.

- S


--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

On 10/29/2010 8:17 PM, admin wrote:
>>
> obviously the old arguments didn't work, time to start anew.

obviously you didn't stop to learn the art of persuasion.

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

On 10/29/2010 08:31 PM, William A. Rowe Jr. wrote:
> On 10/29/2010 8:17 PM, admin wrote:
>
>>>
>>>
>> obviously the old arguments didn't work, time to start anew.
>>
> obviously you didn't stop to learn the art of persuasion.
>
>
That's just rude, dude.

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

On 10/29/2010 08:24 PM, Scott MacVicar wrote:
> On Oct 29, 2010, at 6:17 PM, admin wrote:
>
>
>> On 10/29/2010 08:11 PM, William A. Rowe Jr. wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/29/2010 7:47 PM, admin wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> WTF is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM?
>>>>
>>>> This has to be THE most asked question by new php developers when they come across it.
>>>> Can we please change the token name to T_DOUBLE_COLON so I don't have to hear about it
>>>> constantly?
>>>>
>>>> Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it is asked. it's worth it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Is it that hard to at least review the mailing list archives before ranting?
>>>
>>> At least posters would sound like they have educated themselves on why what
>>> came to be, and argue sensibly for changes.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> obviously the old arguments didn't work, time to start anew.
>>
>>
> using a name like "admin" in your email headers isn't going to be very receptive.
>
> For what its worth its Hebrew for double colon. I'm all for the change, will see what I can do next week.
>
> - S
>
>
Oops, sorry didn't even notice it was there, I don't send mail from this
account much.

Should be fixed. Though I don't care what my name has to do with reception.

What is in a name anyway?

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

I'll bite.

Why should this be changed? Is it broken? Is it something that 1 second on google can't answer?
If somebody is advanced enough to be using classes (I think about the only time you would use a double colon) then they should know what it means.

--
James Butler
Sent from my iPhone

On 30 Oct 2010, at 02:51, "Chad Emrys" <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 10/29/2010 08:24 PM, Scott MacVicar wrote:
>> On Oct 29, 2010, at 6:17 PM, admin wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On 10/29/2010 08:11 PM, William A. Rowe Jr. wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/29/2010 7:47 PM, admin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> WTF is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM?
>>>>>
>>>>> This has to be THE most asked question by new php developers when they come across it.
>>>>> Can we please change the token name to T_DOUBLE_COLON so I don't have to hear about it
>>>>> constantly?
>>>>>
>>>>> Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it is asked. it's worth it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Is it that hard to at least review the mailing list archives before ranting?
>>>>
>>>> At least posters would sound like they have educated themselves on why what
>>>> came to be, and argue sensibly for changes.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> obviously the old arguments didn't work, time to start anew.
>>>
>>>
>> using a name like "admin" in your email headers isn't going to be very receptive.
>>
>> For what its worth its Hebrew for double colon. I'm all for the change, will see what I can do next week.
>>
>> - S
>>
>>
> Oops, sorry didn't even notice it was there, I don't send mail from this
> account much.
>
> Should be fixed. Though I don't care what my name has to do with reception.
>
> What is in a name anyway?
>
> --
> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>


--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 21:24, Scott MacVicar <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> using a name like "admin" in your email headers isn't going to be very receptive.

I was thinking the exact same thing. Glad not to be the only one. ;-P

--
</Daniel P. Brown>
Network Infrastructure Manager
Documentation, Webmaster Teams
http://www.php.net/

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

On 10/29/2010 09:29 PM, James Butler wrote:
> I'll bite.
>
> Why should this be changed? Is it broken? Is it something that 1 second on google can't answer?
> If somebody is advanced enough to be using classes (I think about the only time you would use a double colon) then they should know what it means.
>
> --
> James Butler
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 30 Oct 2010, at 02:51, "Chad Emrys"<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
The fact they have to google to figure out what it means, the error
message fails at it's purpose. (Realistically it'll take longer than a
second unless you got google hot keyed to your log reader). I Liked
Stefan's idea in the previous thread to not put token names in the error
messages anymore and replace them with something more meaningful for the
user. However, since that never happened, this is a better/easier
alternative for now. How many total hours of googling will we save
developers for a 10 sec grep and replace? (not sure if it's that easy,
but for the sake of the argument).

I can see only positives by switching it out. can someone give me a
light on how much it would actually cost to do that? Some negatives? I
don't see the argument given to be entirely helpful because it's exactly
what I am trying to point out as a problem, and the reason why we should
change it.

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

The first google entry when you search for it gives you the answer. It is actually unbelievably easy to find the answer via search. If a new PHP developer can't find it then maybe they shouldn't be writing code.

This is a piece of history from the PHP 3 days and think it adds some character, a story (and history) to PHP. Don't think we should take this out after a good 12 years.

I would prefer this was not changed.

Andi

> -----Original Message-----
> From: admin [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:47 PM
> To: internals php list
> Subject: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to
> T_DOUBLE_COLON
>
> WTF is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM?
>
> This has to be THE most asked question by new php developers when they
> come across it. Can we please change the token name to T_DOUBLE_COLON
> so I don't have to hear about it constantly?
>
> Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it is
> asked. it's worth it.
>
> Chad
>
> --
> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit:
> http://www.php.net/unsub.php


--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

As you mention, PHP errors are token names. Users have to read the
manual to understand them at first sight. Then, what's the matter in
having a bit of fun and nostalgia naming the tokens ?

Switching to meanful error messages would make your point though.

Pierre.

Le samedi 30 octobre 2010 à 01:17 -0500, Chad Emrys a écrit :
> On 10/29/2010 09:29 PM, James Butler wrote:
> > I'll bite.
> >
> > Why should this be changed? Is it broken? Is it something that 1 second on google can't answer?
> > If somebody is advanced enough to be using classes (I think about the only time you would use a double colon) then they should know what it means.
> >
> > --
> > James Butler
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On 30 Oct 2010, at 02:51, "Chad Emrys"<[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> The fact they have to google to figure out what it means, the error
> message fails at it's purpose. (Realistically it'll take longer than a
> second unless you got google hot keyed to your log reader). I Liked
> Stefan's idea in the previous thread to not put token names in the error
> messages anymore and replace them with something more meaningful for the
> user. However, since that never happened, this is a better/easier
> alternative for now. How many total hours of googling will we save
> developers for a 10 sec grep and replace? (not sure if it's that easy,
> but for the sake of the argument).
>
> I can see only positives by switching it out. can someone give me a
> light on how much it would actually cost to do that? Some negatives? I
> don't see the argument given to be entirely helpful because it's exactly
> what I am trying to point out as a problem, and the reason why we should
> change it.
>

On 10/30/2010 01:23 AM, Andi Gutmans wrote:
> The first google entry when you search for it gives you the answer. It is actually unbelievably easy to find the answer via search. If a new PHP developer can't find it then maybe they shouldn't be writing code.
>
> This is a piece of history from the PHP 3 days and think it adds some character, a story (and history) to PHP. Don't think we should take this out after a good 12 years.
>
> I would prefer this was not changed.
>
> Andi
>
>
I don't see what is so endearing about a badly named token.

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

On 10/29/10 11:17 PM, Chad Emrys wrote:
> The fact they have to google to figure out what it means, the error
> message fails at it's purpose. (Realistically it'll take longer than a
> second unless you got google hot keyed to your log reader). I Liked
> Stefan's idea in the previous thread to not put token names in the error
> messages anymore and replace them with something more meaningful for the
> user. However, since that never happened, this is a better/easier
> alternative for now. How many total hours of googling will we save
> developers for a 10 sec grep and replace? (not sure if it's that easy,
> but for the sake of the argument).
>
> I can see only positives by switching it out. can someone give me a
> light on how much it would actually cost to do that? Some negatives? I
> don't see the argument given to be entirely helpful because it's exactly
> what I am trying to point out as a problem, and the reason why we should
> change it.

There are two reasons this term will stay. It is a tip of the hat to
the amount of PHP work that came out of Israel, and it is a good
reminder that there are a lot of other languages in the world. People
whose first language is not English, myself included, are forced to work
with unfamiliar terms every day. I wouldn't mind having a few more
non-English identifiers in PHP actually.

Well, and a third reason, I like it.

-Rasmus

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

On 10/30/2010 01:30 AM, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote:
> On 10/29/10 11:17 PM, Chad Emrys wrote:
>
>> The fact they have to google to figure out what it means, the error
>> message fails at it's purpose. (Realistically it'll take longer than a
>> second unless you got google hot keyed to your log reader). I Liked
>> Stefan's idea in the previous thread to not put token names in the error
>> messages anymore and replace them with something more meaningful for the
>> user. However, since that never happened, this is a better/easier
>> alternative for now. How many total hours of googling will we save
>> developers for a 10 sec grep and replace? (not sure if it's that easy,
>> but for the sake of the argument).
>>
>> I can see only positives by switching it out. can someone give me a
>> light on how much it would actually cost to do that? Some negatives? I
>> don't see the argument given to be entirely helpful because it's exactly
>> what I am trying to point out as a problem, and the reason why we should
>> change it.
>>
> There are two reasons this term will stay. It is a tip of the hat to
> the amount of PHP work that came out of Israel, and it is a good
> reminder that there are a lot of other languages in the world. People
> whose first language is not English, myself included, are forced to work
> with unfamiliar terms every day. I wouldn't mind having a few more
> non-English identifiers in PHP actually.
>
> Well, and a third reason, I like it.
>
> -Rasmus
>
Well Rasmus, I wish you would hang out more in ##php on freenode. (I
see you there every so often) But we do get that question about that
thing a lot. And even some rage, and I have to cool them off with all
the reasons you and Andi are giving me right now. But I am not
convinced nostalgia or "teaching the English speakers a lesson" is a
good reason to keep around a confusing error message.

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

On 10/30/2010 11:53 AM, Andi Gutmans wrote:
> I would prefer this was not changed.

+1 (for the same reasons)

--
Sebastian Bergmann Co-Founder and Principal Consultant
http://sebastian-bergmann.de/ http://thePHP.cc/

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Hi!

> I can see only positives by switching it out. can someone give me a
> light on how much it would actually cost to do that? Some negatives? I

It would probably require bribing all the opponents, so the cost would
be in high six digits (in $US) I guess.

> what I am trying to point out as a problem, and the reason why we should

It's not a problem. A very mild irritation at best.
--
Stanislav Malyshev, Software Architect
SugarCRM: http://www.sugarcrm.com/
(408)454-6900 ext. 227

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

On 10/30/2010 01:36 AM, Stas Malyshev wrote:
> Hi!
>
>> I can see only positives by switching it out. can someone give me a
>> light on how much it would actually cost to do that? Some negatives? I
>
> It would probably require bribing all the opponents, so the cost would
> be in high six digits (in $US) I guess.
Good thing this is FOSS! I only have to bribe who ever is approving
patches/commits these days.
>
>> what I am trying to point out as a problem, and the reason why we should
>
> It's not a problem. A very mild irritation at best.
See my original message, you don't do enough support. :p


--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

On 30 okt 2010, at 08:34, Sebastian Bergmann <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 10/30/2010 11:53 AM, Andi Gutmans wrote:
>> I would prefer this was not changed.
>
> +1 (for the same reasons)
>

I agree with Andi, Rasmus and the other people in favor.

This token name is part of the history of PHP and adds to it's
uniqueness.

But besides this: renaming the constant is probably not going to solve
the problem (at least not anytime soon).

Changing this constant would mean breaking BC (some people using the
tokenizer extension might use it) and thus officially it should only
be implemented in PHP-next.
This means that the support requests will be coming in for a long time
as it not even planned for release or anything.

Suppose that this rename would happen in the next minor release: most
shared hosts lag immensily with their installed PHP version and I
reckon most questions come from inexperienced / starting developers
working with / on said hosts. And this means it will again take a long
time before you notice any effect. (not to mention that Linux distros
also lag).

(additionally I wonder why people ask such a simple question on IRC
whilst googling provides your answer faster..)

Bottom line: I'd opt for keeping it.

Kind regards,

Mike van Riel

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Den 2010 10 30 03:51 skrev "Chad Emrys" <[email protected]>:

* snip *

> What is in a name anyway?

There's something VERY ironic about a statement like that given what you're
asking for ...

Regards
Peter

On 30 October 2010 09:09, Mike Van Riel <[email protected]> wrote:

* snip *

> (additionally I wonder why people ask such a simple question on IRC whilst
> googling provides your answer faster..)

Most of the people coming to ##php on freenode asking questions like
that have a hard time learning (on their own or at all) - they expect
to be spoonfed. Changing the token name might lower the frequency of
this particular question, but it would have no overall effect on the
number of people coming to ask questions they could get answered in
two seconds by google.

Regards
Peter

--
<hype>
WWW: plphp.dk / plind.dk
LinkedIn: plind
BeWelcome/Couchsurfing: Fake51
Twitter: kafe15
</hype>

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

On 10/30/2010 02:09 AM, Mike Van Riel wrote:
> On 30 okt 2010, at 08:34, Sebastian Bergmann <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 10/30/2010 11:53 AM, Andi Gutmans wrote:
>>> I would prefer this was not changed.
>>
>> +1 (for the same reasons)
>>
>
> I agree with Andi, Rasmus and the other people in favor.
>
> This token name is part of the history of PHP and adds to it's
> uniqueness.
>
> But besides this: renaming the constant is probably not going to solve
> the problem (at least not anytime soon).
>
> Changing this constant would mean breaking BC (some people using the
> tokenizer extension might use it) and thus officially it should only
> be implemented in PHP-next.
> This means that the support requests will be coming in for a long time
> as it not even planned for release or anything.
>
> Suppose that this rename would happen in the next minor release: most
> shared hosts lag immensily with their installed PHP version and I
> reckon most questions come from inexperienced / starting developers
> working with / on said hosts. And this means it will again take a long
> time before you notice any effect. (not to mention that Linux distros
> also lag).
>
> (additionally I wonder why people ask such a simple question on IRC
> whilst googling provides your answer faster..)
>
> Bottom line: I'd opt for keeping it.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Mike van Riel

Just want to make this point: the length of time for it to take affect
is not an argument for not implementing it. It'll come out when it's
out. The sooner we implement it, the sooner we'll notice the effect.
This goes for any change slanted for major release.

(Also if I understand, there is a synonym in Tokenizer anyway so both
would work and won't break BC, I just don't understand why the confusing
name has to show up in error messages).

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

On 10/30/2010 02:11 AM, Peter Lind wrote:
> Den 2010 10 30 03:51 skrev "Chad Emrys" <[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>>:
>
> * snip *
>
> > What is in a name anyway?
>
> There's something VERY ironic about a statement like that given what
> you're asking for ...
>
> Regards
> Peter
It was intentional ;p, glad you caught it.

On 10/30/2010 02:16 AM, Peter Lind wrote:
> On 30 October 2010 09:09, Mike Van Riel<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> * snip *
>
>
>> (additionally I wonder why people ask such a simple question on IRC whilst
>> googling provides your answer faster..)
>>
> Most of the people coming to ##php on freenode asking questions like
> that have a hard time learning (on their own or at all) - they expect
> to be spoonfed. Changing the token name might lower the frequency of
> this particular question, but it would have no overall effect on the
> number of people coming to ask questions they could get answered in
> two seconds by google.
>
> Regards
> Peter
>
>
It's the same argument everyone else is giving, and really it all comes
down to this.:

Nostalgia is valued over clarity and consistency.

Do you guys REALLY want to claim that?

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

On 30 October 2010 09:34, Chad Emrys <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 10/30/2010 02:16 AM, Peter Lind wrote:
>>
>> On 30 October 2010 09:09, Mike Van Riel<[email protected]>  wrote:
>>
>> * snip *
>>
>>
>>>
>>> (additionally I wonder why people ask such a simple question on IRC
>>> whilst
>>> googling provides your answer faster..)
>>>
>>
>> Most of the people coming to ##php on freenode asking questions like
>> that have a hard time learning (on their own or at all) - they expect
>> to be spoonfed. Changing the token name might lower the frequency of
>> this particular question, but it would have no overall effect on the
>> number of people coming to ask questions they could get answered in
>> two seconds by google.
>>
>> Regards
>> Peter
>>
>>
>
> It's the same argument everyone else is giving,  and really it all comes
> down to this.:
>
> Nostalgia is valued over clarity and consistency.
>
> Do you guys REALLY want to claim that?
>

I wasn't arguing for or against a switch, just providing some
background. That said, people with no google skills bugging you on irc
is a very poor excuse for change. As for the rest of the discussion,
both sides seem to have merit, in my opinion.

Regards
Peter


--
<hype>
WWW: plphp.dk / plind.dk
LinkedIn: plind
BeWelcome/Couchsurfing: Fake51
Twitter: kafe15
</hype>

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

On 30 October 2010 02:51, Chad Emrys <[email protected]> wrote:
> What is in a name anyway?

Would a T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM by any other name make a difference?



--
Richard Quadling
Twitter : EE : Zend
@RQuadling : e-e.com/M_248814.html : bit.ly/9O8vFY

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

On 10/30/2010 10:01 AM, Richard Quadling wrote:
> On 30 October 2010 02:51, Chad Emrys <[email protected]> wrote:
>> What is in a name anyway?
> Would a T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM by any other name make a difference?
>
>

To provide a counterargument, it certainly would. I don't consider
myself an inexperienced PHP developer and have certainly done some OO
programming, yet I only recently stumbled upon this error.

I must admit that it is confusing. Most of these error messages are
descriptive enough that just glossing over the code allows me to fix the
issue 4 out of 5 times. For this one I had to do a Google search to
reaffirm that my PHP installation didn't become the victim of a
corrupted filesystem.

Regards,

Jorrit

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

On 30 okt 2010, at 09:34, Chad Emrys <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 10/30/2010 02:16 AM, Peter Lind wrote:
>> On 30 October 2010 09:09, Mike Van Riel<[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> * snip *
>>
>>
>>> (additionally I wonder why people ask such a simple question on
>>> IRC whilst
>>> googling provides your answer faster..)
>>>
>> Most of the people coming to ##php on freenode asking questions like
>> that have a hard time learning (on their own or at all) - they expect
>> to be spoonfed. Changing the token name might lower the frequency of
>> this particular question, but it would have no overall effect on the
>> number of people coming to ask questions they could get answered in
>> two seconds by google.
>>
>> Regards
>> Peter
>>
>>
> It's the same argument everyone else is giving, and really it all
> comes down to this.:
>
> Nostalgia is valued over clarity and consistency.
>
> Do you guys REALLY want to claim that?

If you are referring to my response, I believe I have given other
arguments than your claim, as have others.

The point is in the question: is it worth it?

Do you think it is worth it to change something which works
(functionally), has been there for 12 years and for the effort it
takes to persuade people to want to change it?

This all because people will have to google once in their carreer?

Another solution might be to add a rule to an IRC bot to automatically
provide the answer if the token name (and/or common misspellings) are
mentioned. This would instantly solve the issue about support requests.

Kind regards,

Mike van Riel


--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

On 30.10.2010 08:34, Chad Emrys wrote:
> Well Rasmus, I wish you would hang out more in ##php on freenode. (I
> see you there every so often) But we do get that question about that
> thing a lot. And even some rage, and I have to cool them off with all
> the reasons you and Andi are giving me right now. But I am not
> convinced nostalgia or "teaching the English speakers a lesson" is a
> good reason to keep around a confusing error message.

Well, isn't the problem here more people asking on IRC rather than using
a search engine before? Renaming will not solve that.

~danielj

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php