[PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON

> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: Stan Vass [mailto:[email protected]]
> Verzonden: maandag 1 november 2010 10:19
> Aan: internals@lists.php.net
> Onderwerp: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to
> T_DOUBLE_COLON
> Urgentie: Laag
>
> It's amazing to me this has become such a long discussion. The facts
> are
> simple:
>
> 1) People don't ask for the other parse errors even half as often as
> they as for T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM
> 2) They do so because it looks like gibberish to them, so it looks
> unlikely to be a common thing you can Google, nor it gives something
> recignizable to start with
> 3) Yes, to all who are not sure, more people know English than Hebrew.
> 4) Yes, we all acknowledge it's an easter egg joke that refers to the
> creators of PHP. But that particular joke has outworn its welcome in
> the community after repeatedly causing support issues.
>
> T_DOUBLE_COLON already exists as a constant in userland, so the jump
> to it won't be an epic change. Let's do it as a proof that we're not a
> nerd gridlock bound to argue forever about even the most minor and
> obviously positive changes PHP can implement.
>
> Stan Vass
>
>
> --
> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe,
> visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Come on people, what exactly is the problem with a once-in-a-lifetime investment of 5 seconds of your time to google some stupid error message. Something you, as a developer, spend your life doing.

Please, stop complaining about a minor (yes, it is minor, use the fricking search engine!) annoyance and accept php's heritage.

And please understand, I do get where all the opponents are coming from, it is an unnecessary complicated error message (I agree that the language argument is a moot point, in the world of internet and programming in particular, English is the standard), but you google it once in your life and then you 'forget' about it. And if you can't remember the meaning of something like that, I hardly doubt you'd be a decent programmer anyway.

Regards,
Dennis Haarbrink

Agreed, and really - my experience is that googling non-standard error
message usually give instant result. Googling for a common error
message could become a big time investment pointing to different
software even if you point to search engine for what software to look.

2010/11/1 Dennis Haarbrink <[email protected]>:
>> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
>> Van: Stan Vass [mailto:[email protected]]
>> Verzonden: maandag 1 november 2010 10:19
>> Aan: internals@lists.php.net
>> Onderwerp: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to
>> T_DOUBLE_COLON
>> Urgentie: Laag
>>
>> It's amazing to me this has become such a long discussion. The facts
>> are
>> simple:
>>
>> 1) People don't ask for the other parse errors even half as often as
>> they as for T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM
>> 2) They do so because it looks like gibberish to them, so it looks
>> unlikely to be a common thing you can Google, nor it gives something
>> recignizable to start with
>> 3) Yes, to all who are not sure, more people know English than Hebrew.
>> 4) Yes, we all acknowledge it's an easter egg joke that refers to the
>> creators of PHP. But that particular joke has outworn its welcome in
>> the community after repeatedly causing support issues.
>>
>> T_DOUBLE_COLON already exists as a constant in userland, so the jump
>> to it won't be an epic change. Let's do it as a proof that we're not a
>> nerd gridlock bound to argue forever about even the most minor and
>> obviously positive changes PHP can implement.
>>
>> Stan Vass
>>
>>
>> --
>> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe,
>> visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
> Come on people, what exactly is the problem with a once-in-a-lifetime investment of 5 seconds of your time to google some stupid error message. Something you, as a developer, spend your life doing.
>
> Please, stop complaining about a minor (yes, it is minor, use the fricking search engine!) annoyance and accept php's heritage.
>
> And please understand, I do get where all the opponents are coming from, it is an unnecessary complicated error message (I agree that the language argument is a moot point, in the world of internet and programming in particular, English is the standard), but you google it once in your life and then you 'forget' about it. And if you can't remember the meaning of something like that, I hardly doubt you'd be a decent programmer anyway.
>
> Regards,
> Dennis Haarbrink
>
>
>

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On 30 October 2010 01:47, admin <[email protected]> wrote:
> WTF is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM?
>
> This has to be THE most asked question by new php developers when they come
> across it.  Can we please change the token name to T_DOUBLE_COLON so I don't
> have to hear about it constantly?
>
> Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it is
> asked. it's worth it.
>
> Chad

Maybe, considering the easter egg nature of this token, one of the
following URLs should be included in the message ...

tinyurl.com/c8d7ek, tinyurl.com/25865ya or tinyurl.com/nlx98u.

Maybe just drop the tinyurl.com part - let's give those that can't
really something to complain about!




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On Mon, Nov 01, 2010 at 10:58:36AM +0100, Dennis Haarbrink wrote:
> Come on people, what exactly is the problem with a once-in-a-lifetime investment of 5 seconds of your time to google some stupid error message. Something you, as a developer, spend your life doing.
>
> Please, stop complaining about a minor (yes, it is minor, use the fricking search engine!) annoyance and accept php's heritage.
>
> And please understand, I do get where all the opponents are coming from, it is an unnecessary complicated error message (I agree that the language argument is a moot point, in the world of internet and programming in particular, English is the standard), but you google it once in your life and then you 'forget' about it. And if you can't remember the meaning of something like that, I hardly doubt you'd be a decent programmer anyway.

Its a minor change and an annoyance to a lot of people. Yes, by not changing
this you'r annoying thousands of people.

This isn't an easteregg either. This is a "lesson" as someone explained.
eastereggs aren't visible to normal users.

If you want teach people about Hebrew you obviously can do so. I don't see how
that is the goal of a programming language, but that is an other issue. But
don't come along and insult us with this bullshit.


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On 01 Nov 2010, at 12:06, Alexander Schrijver wrote:
> Its a minor change and an annoyance to a lot of people. Yes, by not changing
> this you'r annoying thousands of people.
Instead of going for this cosmetic nonsense you should help those people on the lemon branch.
I am insulted every time I have to read a parser token name in an error message, instead of a sensible error message.
The cost of understanding T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM as part of the current mumbo-jumbo is completely insignificant compared to the cost of actually understanding the error message just indicating what the parser would have expected.

Changing to lemon is the only way to actually achieve something in the long run...

Best regards
Stefan


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Vrije Universiteit Brussel
Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium
http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr
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Fax: +32 2 629 3525


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+1

This solves lots of other problems we have and will have in the future.

--
James Butler
Sent from my iPhone

On 1 Nov 2010, at 12:00, "Stefan Marr" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> On 01 Nov 2010, at 12:06, Alexander Schrijver wrote:
>> Its a minor change and an annoyance to a lot of people. Yes, by not changing
>> this you'r annoying thousands of people.
> Instead of going for this cosmetic nonsense you should help those people on the lemon branch.
> I am insulted every time I have to read a parser token name in an error message, instead of a sensible error message.
> The cost of understanding T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM as part of the current mumbo-jumbo is completely insignificant compared to the cost of actually understanding the error message just indicating what the parser would have expected.
>
> Changing to lemon is the only way to actually achieve something in the long run...
>
> Best regards
> Stefan
>
>
> --
> Stefan Marr
> Software Languages Lab
> Vrije Universiteit Brussel
> Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium
> http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr
> Phone: +32 2 629 2974
> Fax: +32 2 629 3525
>
>
> --
> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>


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On Mon, Nov 01, 2010 at 12:59:54PM +0100, Stefan Marr wrote:
>
> On 01 Nov 2010, at 12:06, Alexander Schrijver wrote:
> > Its a minor change and an annoyance to a lot of people. Yes, by not changing
> > this you'r annoying thousands of people.
> Instead of going for this cosmetic nonsense you should help those people on the lemon branch.
> I am insulted every time I have to read a parser token name in an error message, instead of a sensible error message.
> The cost of understanding T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM as part of the current mumbo-jumbo is completely insignificant compared to the cost of actually understanding the error message just indicating what the parser would have expected.
>
> Changing to lemon is the only way to actually achieve something in the long run...

Right, and be forced to introduce some bullshit hebrew when its done. No, thank you.

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-----Original Message-----
From: Alexander Schrijver [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: 01 November 2010 12:19
To: Stefan Marr
Cc: Dennis Haarbrink; Stan Vass; internals@lists.php.net
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON

On Mon, Nov 01, 2010 at 12:59:54PM +0100, Stefan Marr wrote:
>
> On 01 Nov 2010, at 12:06, Alexander Schrijver wrote:
> > Its a minor change and an annoyance to a lot of people. Yes, by not changing
> > this you'r annoying thousands of people.
> Instead of going for this cosmetic nonsense you should help those people on the lemon branch.
> I am insulted every time I have to read a parser token name in an error message, instead of a sensible error message.
> The cost of understanding T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM as part of the current mumbo-jumbo is completely insignificant compared to the cost of actually understanding the error message just indicating what the parser would have expected.
>
> Changing to lemon is the only way to actually achieve something in the long run...

Right, and be forced to introduce some bullshit hebrew when its done. No, thank you.

Err, the entire point is that it won't matter what the underlying token is. The error as seen can be anything you want it to be, or at least you can have a fight about what the new message looks like and i'm sure there won't really be a compelling reason for it to be in hebrew (unless localized).
Please grow up...

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On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:23 PM, James Butler <
[email protected]> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alexander Schrijver [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: 01 November 2010 12:19
> To: Stefan Marr
> Cc: Dennis Haarbrink; Stan Vass; internals@lists.php.net
> Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename
> T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON
>
> On Mon, Nov 01, 2010 at 12:59:54PM +0100, Stefan Marr wrote:
> >
> > On 01 Nov 2010, at 12:06, Alexander Schrijver wrote:
> > > Its a minor change and an annoyance to a lot of people. Yes, by not
> changing
> > > this you'r annoying thousands of people.
> > Instead of going for this cosmetic nonsense you should help those people
> on the lemon branch.
> > I am insulted every time I have to read a parser token name in an error
> message, instead of a sensible error message.
> > The cost of understanding T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM as part of the current
> mumbo-jumbo is completely insignificant compared to the cost of actually
> understanding the error message just indicating what the parser would have
> expected.
> >
> > Changing to lemon is the only way to actually achieve something in the
> long run...
>
> Right, and be forced to introduce some bullshit hebrew when its done. No,
> thank you.
>
> Err, the entire point is that it won't matter what the underlying token is.
> The error as seen can be anything you want it to be, or at least you can
> have a fight about what the new message looks like and i'm sure there won't
> really be a compelling reason for it to be in hebrew (unless localized).
> Please grow up...
>
>
We don't know that when will the lemon switch be merged
With that merged, what will be used for the double colon error?
If we keep the constant as is, but show some the correct english error
message, then this can be a solution.
But with that, the whole educational and easter egg thingy will be gone IMO,
so if we chose that path, we could rename the T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM right
now.
If we keep the hebrew error message(so that will be shown in the logs, etc.)
after the lemon switch, then I can't see why should Alexander work on that
issue, when it's not going to solve the problem?

Tyrael

Stan Vass wrote:
> It's amazing to me this has become such a long discussion. The facts are
> simple:
>
> 1) People don't ask for the other parse errors even half as often as
> they as for T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM
> 2) They do so because it looks like gibberish to them, so it looks
> unlikely to be a common thing you can Google, nor it gives something
> recignizable to start with
> 3) Yes, to all who are not sure, more people know English than Hebrew.
> 4) Yes, we all acknowledge it's an easter egg joke that refers to the
> creators of PHP. But that particular joke has outworn its welcome in the
> community after repeatedly causing support issues.
>
> T_DOUBLE_COLON already exists as a constant in userland, so the jump to
> it won't be an epic change. Let's do it as a proof that we're not a nerd
> gridlock bound to argue forever about even the most minor and obviously
> positive changes PHP can implement.

Makes sense, just alias it and change the error message thus keeping bc.




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On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 2:10 PM, Nathan Rixham <[email protected]> wrote:

> Makes sense, just alias it and change the error message thus keeping bc.

Please just move on.

Everything possible has been said already. If we feel like there are
critical issues introduced by this error message, then we may fix it,
at some point, or maybe not. So please just stop to feed this thread
as nothing new has been said in the last 100 replies.

Thanks for your understanding,

Cheers,
--
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@pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org

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On Fri, October 29, 2010 7:47 pm, admin wrote:
> WTF is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM?
>
> This has to be THE most asked question by new php developers when they
> come across it. Can we please change the token name to T_DOUBLE_COLON
> so I don't have to hear about it constantly?
>
> Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it
> is
> asked. it's worth it.

-1

And I *have* done "enough" PHP support. :-)

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2010/11/1 Richard Lynch <[email protected]>

> On Fri, October 29, 2010 7:47 pm, admin wrote:
> > WTF is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM?
> >
> > This has to be THE most asked question by new php developers when they
> > come across it. Can we please change the token name to T_DOUBLE_COLON
> > so I don't have to hear about it constantly?
> >
> > Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it
> > is
> > asked. it's worth it.
>
> -1
>
>
Instead of renaming the token, I prefer to associate a literal string to
each token, to have a legible error message, without the T_ being shown.

For example, we could use in the Bison grammar file:
%token T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM "::"

So that the error message become:

$ sapi/cli/php -r '::'
Parse error: syntax error, unexpected :: in Command line code on line 1

Instead of the known "unexpected T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM" one.

--
Regards,
Felipe Pena

On 11/1/10 1:47 PM, Felipe Pena wrote:
> 2010/11/1 Richard Lynch <[email protected]>
>
>> On Fri, October 29, 2010 7:47 pm, admin wrote:
>>> WTF is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM?
>>>
>>> This has to be THE most asked question by new php developers when they
>>> come across it. Can we please change the token name to T_DOUBLE_COLON
>>> so I don't have to hear about it constantly?
>>>
>>> Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it
>>> is
>>> asked. it's worth it.
>>
>> -1
>>
>>
> Instead of renaming the token, I prefer to associate a literal string to
> each token, to have a legible error message, without the T_ being shown.
>
> For example, we could use in the Bison grammar file:
> %token T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM "::"
>
> So that the error message become:
>
> $ sapi/cli/php -r '::'
> Parse error: syntax error, unexpected :: in Command line code on line 1
>
> Instead of the known "unexpected T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM" one.

Years and years ago that was the intent. I didn't think there was a
clean way to do that in yacc though.

-Rasmus

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On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 9:50 PM, Rasmus Lerdorf <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 11/1/10 1:47 PM, Felipe Pena wrote:
> > 2010/11/1 Richard Lynch <ceo@l-i-[email protected]>
> >
> >> On Fri, October 29, 2010 7:47 pm, admin wrote:
> >>> WTF is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM?
> >>>
> >>> This has to be THE most asked question by new php developers when they
> >>> come across it. Can we please change the token name to T_DOUBLE_COLON
> >>> so I don't have to hear about it constantly?
> >>>
> >>> Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it
> >>> is
> >>> asked. it's worth it.
> >>
> >> -1
> >>
> >>
> > Instead of renaming the token, I prefer to associate a literal string to
> > each token, to have a legible error message, without the T_ being shown.
> >
> > For example, we could use in the Bison grammar file:
> > %token T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM "::"
> >
> > So that the error message become:
> >
> > $ sapi/cli/php -r '::'
> > Parse error: syntax error, unexpected :: in Command line code on line 1
> >
> > Instead of the known "unexpected T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM" one.
>
> Years and years ago that was the intent. I didn't think there was a
> clean way to do that in yacc though.
>
>
....
so when will we start replacing the tokens with literals?

Tyrael

On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 9:47 PM, Felipe Pena <[email protected]> wrote:

> 2010/11/1 Richard Lynch <[email protected]>
>
> > On Fri, October 29, 2010 7:47 pm, admin wrote:
> > > WTF is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM?
> > >
> > > This has to be THE most asked question by new php developers when they
> > > come across it. Can we please change the token name to T_DOUBLE_COLON
> > > so I don't have to hear about it constantly?
> > >
> > > Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it
> > > is
> > > asked. it's worth it.
> >
> > -1
> >
> >
> Instead of renaming the token, I prefer to associate a literal string to
> each token, to have a legible error message, without the T_ being shown.
>
> For example, we could use in the Bison grammar file:
> %token T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM "::"
>
> So that the error message become:
>
> $ sapi/cli/php -r '::'
> Parse error: syntax error, unexpected :: in Command line code on line 1
>
> Instead of the known "unexpected T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM" one.
>
>
>
Thanks Felipe, you are my hero.
Anybody else thinks that this thread is very similar to the last array
dereferencing discussion?
http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg46789.html

Somebody brought up the idea, most of the veterans tried to dismiss without
discussion, pointing out, that its an old topic, and nothing will change,
status quo, others tried to bend the thread to the lemon patch.
and Felipe solved the original problem that everybody thought impossible, or
much harder, than it was actually.

so I think we should ask Felipe more about the unsolvable problems in PHP,
and maybe we shouldn't stop discussions about old topics, because maybe the
environment around the problems changed with time.

Tyrael

On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 9:47 PM, Felipe Pena <[email protected]> wrote:

> 2010/11/1 Richard Lynch <[email protected]>
>
> > On Fri, October 29, 2010 7:47 pm, admin wrote:
> > > WTF is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM?
> > >
> > > This has to be THE most asked question by new php developers when they
> > > come across it. Can we please change the token name to T_DOUBLE_COLON
> > > so I don't have to hear about it constantly?
> > >
> > > Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it
> > > is
> > > asked. it's worth it.
> >
> > -1
> >
> >
> Instead of renaming the token, I prefer to associate a literal string to
> each token, to have a legible error message, without the T_ being shown.
>
> For example, we could use in the Bison grammar file:
> %token T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM "::"
>
> So that the error message become:
>
> $ sapi/cli/php -r '::'
> Parse error: syntax error, unexpected :: in Command line code on line 1
>
> Instead of the known "unexpected T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM" one.
>

+1 on implementing this so we don't have to wait for lemon.
While knowing how to use a search engine is good, it's even better to not
have to and save the time spent on it.


> --
> Regards,
> Felipe Pena
>