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[PHP-DEV] Mailing list moderation

Posted by Nikita Popov 
Daniel Brown
Re: [PHP-DEV] Mailing list moderation
January 03, 2018 09:10PM
On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 11:16 AM, Johannes Schlüter <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Di, 2018-01-02 at 11:49 +0100, Nikita Popov wrote:
>> lists@rhsoft.net, who have recently been
>> aggressively derailing
>
> He was blocked in 2012 already:
>
> https://externals.io/message/59395#59421

I hadn't even noticed this thread until the flurry of activity
kept throwing it to the top of my inbox, but if you remember, that
2012 ban by Rasmus was far from the only time he caused issues. And
it's not just with PHP either.

Reindl Harald has an established pattern of foul
language and harassment of community members in a number of open
source projects. In the notes I keep on people who abuse our
services, I have his first entry coming up on eight years ago, in
July, 2010, where he devolved into profanity and personal attacks
because he didn't like something that was being discussed.

He's had a number of opportunities to correct his abusive
behavior. I, too, agree in second - and even third - chances, but
when this pattern of behavior spans the better part of a decade, and
racks-up enough entries in my notes that I can remember who he is
right off the top of my head, I think enough is enough.

I, for one, say permanently ban him and move on.

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Larry Garfield
Re: [PHP-DEV] Mailing list moderation
January 03, 2018 09:50PM
On Wednesday, January 3, 2018 11:17:53 AM CST Michael Morris wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 11:05 AM, Chase Peeler <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 10:49 AM Paul Jones <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > On Jan 2, 2018, at 12:29, Dustin Wheeler <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 12:19 PM, Levi Morrison <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > If someone dislikes Tony's commentary for any reason (or no reason!)
> > > they
> > > are free to filter his messages themselves -- and then unfilter his
> > > messages when they see fit.
> >
> > I agree with Paul. It would be different if email clients that allowed
> > filtering were expensive or hard to find. They aren’t, though. Pretty much
> > every email client not only allows filtering, but rather advanced
> > filtering
> > as well.
>
> All fine and well, but it doesn't work when people start quoting the
> offender. Also, filters don't stop the poison from affecting the mood of
> the posters who interact with him.
>
> In my experience loud and obnoxious voices drive off thoughtful and
> introspective ones every time. That is the consequence of giving a platform
> to them. As the saying goes, It's pointless to wrestle a pig - you'll just
> get muddy and the pig enjoys it. From a moderators standpoint, if you
> refuse to block jerks eventually all you'll be left with are jerks.

^^ That. Exactly that. Active refusal to police a community results in a
race to the bottom. Every time. Every single time. Add up the amount of
time we're even discussing it, multiply by hour hourly rate... That's how
much it's costing us to even have this discussion about whether or not we
should expel a long time troll.

> > Instead of suspending users, no matter how egregious their offenses may
> > be,
> > let individual users filter them out as they see fit.
>
> Again, in my experience people usually elect to simply leave altogether
> rather than set a long block list. And frankly Tony isn't worth even one
> contributing coder.

Precisely.

"Instead of banning abusive users on Twitter, no matter how egregious their
offenses may be, let individual users do the work of blocking them as they see
fit."

Because putting all of the penalty on the people being attacked, belittled,
and distracted is a great idea. Or they'll just self-filter and leave.

> Tony has been asked multiple times by multiple people to behave. He's been
> banned from other PHP related forums I know of. He's not here to contribute
> in any meaningful way, only complain and make passive agressive swipes at
> other users. I could go on, but I think that alone makes the case that he
> needs to be gone.

+1 for outright removal of both, but Tony in particular. In my 10 years on
this list I haven't seen Tony post constructively once. I've seen him insult,
gaslight, and whataboutism a hundred times. Please, whoever runs this list,
put him out of our misery.

--Larry Garfield
Rasmus Lerdorf
[PHP-DEV] Re: Mailing list moderation
January 03, 2018 10:30PM
Ok, both have been added to the ezmlm deny list for internals

On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 2:49 AM, Nikita Popov <[email protected]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> This mail is going to both the systems group and internals mailing list.
>
> I would like to request a mailing list suspension for the users
> tonymarston@hotmail.com and lists@rhsoft.net, who have recently been
> aggressively derailing the "Scalar Pseudo-type" thread, despite requests to
> moderate their participation both in that thread, and on a number of
> previous instances -- this is certainly not the first time these two users
> have converted an RFC discussion into a dick measuring contest.
>
> If these users cannot be suspended, I would like to request specific
> instructions under what circumstances users can be suspended from the
> internals list, and what procedures need to be followed to achieve this.
>
> Regards,
> Nikita
>
Yasuo Ohgaki
Re: [PHP-DEV] Mailing list moderation
January 07, 2018 03:10PM
Hi Nikita,

On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 7:49 PM, Nikita Popov <[email protected]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> This mail is going to both the systems group and internals mailing list.
>
> I would like to request a mailing list suspension for the users
> tonymarston@hotmail.com and lists@rhsoft.net, who have recently been
> aggressively derailing the "Scalar Pseudo-type" thread, despite requests to
> moderate their participation both in that thread, and on a number of
> previous instances -- this is certainly not the first time these two users
> have converted an RFC discussion into a dick measuring contest.
>
> If these users cannot be suspended, I would like to request specific
> instructions under what circumstances users can be suspended from the
> internals list, and what procedures need to be followed to achieve this.
>
> Regards,
> Nikita
>

At first, I don't understand at all what the issue here at all.
However, I'm -1 on this in general.

Who are going to decide what kind of discussion is correct or wrong?

The last discussion with you about HKDF was total nonsense.
I think you are great programmer, but you were ignorant regarding secure
key derivations. You don't even know what FS (Forward Secrecy), nor PFS
(Perfect Forward Secrecy) that are very basic idea for secure key
derivations.
Without FS, it is considered very vulnerable today. PFS is mandatory for
many
applications. i.e. Slat parameter must be the 1st tional parameter at
least, or
better, it should be a required parameter.

I might be +1 depending on the behavior, but -1 as long as their attitude
is acceptable.

Regards,

--
Yasuo Ohgaki
yohgaki@ohgaki.net
Derick Rethans
[PHP-DEV] Re: Mailing list moderation
April 04, 2018 08:50PM
Hi,

"rhsoft" continues their aggressive behaviour on the bug tracker still
too. One recent illustration is
https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=76184&edit=1

Do we have any methods to ban people from there too?

cheers,
Derick

On Wed, 3 Jan 2018, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote:

> Ok, both have been added to the ezmlm deny list for internals
>
> On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 2:49 AM, Nikita Popov <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > This mail is going to both the systems group and internals mailing list.
> >
> > I would like to request a mailing list suspension for the users
> > tonymarston@hotmail.com and lists@rhsoft.net, who have recently been
> > aggressively derailing the "Scalar Pseudo-type" thread, despite requests to
> > moderate their participation both in that thread, and on a number of
> > previous instances -- this is certainly not the first time these two users
> > have converted an RFC discussion into a dick measuring contest.
> >
> > If these users cannot be suspended, I would like to request specific
> > instructions under what circumstances users can be suspended from the
> > internals list, and what procedures need to be followed to achieve this.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Nikita
> >
>

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Pieter Hordijk
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Mailing list moderation
April 04, 2018 08:50PM
> Hi,
>
> "rhsoft" continues their aggressive behaviour on the bug tracker still
> too. One recent illustration is
> https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=76184&edit=1
>
> Do we have any methods to ban people from there too?
>
> cheers,
> Derick
>
> On Wed, 3 Jan 2018, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote:
>
>> Ok, both have been added to the ezmlm deny list for internals
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 2:49 AM, Nikita Popov <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > This mail is going to both the systems group and internals mailing list.
>> >
>> > I would like to request a mailing list suspension for the users
>> > tonymarston@hotmail.com and lists@rhsoft.net, who have recently been
>> > aggressively derailing the "Scalar Pseudo-type" thread, despite requests to
>> > moderate their participation both in that thread, and on a number of
>> > previous instances -- this is certainly not the first time these two users
>> > have converted an RFC discussion into a dick measuring contest.
>> >
>> > If these users cannot be suspended, I would like to request specific
>> > instructions under what circumstances users can be suspended from the
>> > internals list, and what procedures need to be followed to achieve this.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Nikita
>> >
>>

Yes please.

I have seen only crap behavior on the bug tracker by rhsoft.

Pieter


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Kalle Sommer Nielsen
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Mailing list moderation
April 04, 2018 09:20PM
Hi Derick

2018-04-04 20:42 GMT+02:00 Derick Rethans <[email protected]>:
> Hi,
>
> "rhsoft" continues their aggressive behaviour on the bug tracker still
> too. One recent illustration is
> https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=76184&edit=1
>
> Do we have any methods to ban people from there too?

Sadly we do not as far as I'm aware of, the best thing we could do is
to add rhsoft or similar to the spam keywords, but even that is easily
bypassable.


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regards,

Kalle Sommer Nielsen
kalle@php.net

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Midori Koçak
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Mailing list moderation
April 04, 2018 09:40PM
+1

This kind of language shouldn't be allowed here.

On 4 April 2018 at 20:42, Derick Rethans <[email protected]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> "rhsoft" continues their aggressive behaviour on the bug tracker still
> too. One recent illustration is
> https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=76184&edit=1
>
> Do we have any methods to ban people from there too?
>
> cheers,
> Derick
>
> On Wed, 3 Jan 2018, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote:
>
> > Ok, both have been added to the ezmlm deny list for internals
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 2:49 AM, Nikita Popov <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > This mail is going to both the systems group and internals mailing
> list.
> > >
> > > I would like to request a mailing list suspension for the users
> > > tonymarston@hotmail.com and lists@rhsoft.net, who have recently been
> > > aggressively derailing the "Scalar Pseudo-type" thread, despite
> requests to
> > > moderate their participation both in that thread, and on a number of
> > > previous instances -- this is certainly not the first time these two
> users
> > > have converted an RFC discussion into a dick measuring contest.
> > >
> > > If these users cannot be suspended, I would like to request specific
> > > instructions under what circumstances users can be suspended from the
> > > internals list, and what procedures need to be followed to achieve
> this.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Nikita
> > >
> >
>
> --
> https://derickrethans.nl | https://xdebug.org | https://dram.io
> Like Xdebug? Consider a donation: https://xdebug.org/donate.php,
> or become my Patron: https://www.patreon.com/derickr
> twitter: @derickr and @xdebug
>
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> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
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>
>
Christoph M. Becker
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Mailing list moderation
April 04, 2018 11:50PM
On 04.04.2018 at 20:47, Pieter Hordijk wrote:

>> "rhsoft" continues their aggressive behaviour on the bug tracker still
>> too. One recent illustration is
>> https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=76184&edit=1
>>
>> Do we have any methods to ban people from there too?

> Yes please.
>
> I have seen only crap behavior on the bug tracker by rhsoft.

Well, then have a look at https://bugs.php.net/76172, for instance. :)

While I most certainly don't like the sometimes explicit and/or
aggressive language used by Harald, I consider him a valuable bug
reporter nonetheless[1].

[1]
https://bugs.php.net/search.php?search_for=&boolean=0&limit=30&order_by=&direction=DESC&cmd=display&status=All&bug_type=All&project=All&php_os=&phpver=&cve_id=&assign=&author_email=spam2%40rhsoft.net&bug_age=0&bug_updated=0&commented_by=

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Christoph M. Becker

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Rowan Collins
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Mailing list moderation
April 05, 2018 12:10AM
On 4 April 2018 22:44:56 BST, "Christoph M. Becker" <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 04.04.2018 at 20:47, Pieter Hordijk wrote:
>
>>> "rhsoft" continues their aggressive behaviour on the bug tracker
>still
>>> too. One recent illustration is
>>> https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=76184&edit=1
>>>
>>> Do we have any methods to ban people from there too?
>
>> Yes please.
>>
>> I have seen only crap behavior on the bug tracker by rhsoft.
>
>Well, then have a look at https://bugs.php.net/76172, for instance.
>:)
>
>While I most certainly don't like the sometimes explicit and/or
>aggressive language used by Harald, I consider him a valuable bug
>reporter nonetheless.

At some point, you have to weigh the harm to the community of letting him represent us to others against the benefit he brings. On the bug above he has just described himself as "preferring the Torvalds style"; accepting his contributions means accepting that as a legitimate approach to discussion, and I don't think that's a road we want to go down.

Regards,

--
Rowan Collins
[IMSoP]

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Rowan Collins
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Mailing list moderation
April 05, 2018 12:20AM
On 4 April 2018 22:44:56 BST, "Christoph M. Becker" <[email protected]> wrote:
>While I most certainly don't like the sometimes explicit and/or
>aggressive language used by Harald, I consider him a valuable bug
>reporter nonetheless[1].
>
>[1]
>https://bugs.php.net/search.php?search_for=&boolean=0&limit=30&order_by=&direction=DESC&cmd=display&status=All&bug_type=All&project=All&php_os=&phpver=&cve_id=&assign=&author_email=spam2%40rhsoft.net&bug_age=0&bug_updated=0&commented_by=

I just sorted that list by status, and of 111 bugs, 27 are closed as "not a bug", 6 "won't fix", and 2 were detected as spam, including one with the intriguing title " PHP >= 5.6.0 is broken by definition".

There may be some genuinely useful reports in there, and even some of the not-a-bugs might not be awful, but is it really a list we can't do without, for the sake of not scaring everyone else away?

Regards,

--
Rowan Collins
[IMSoP]

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Christoph M. Becker
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Mailing list moderation
April 05, 2018 02:00AM
On 05.04.2018 at 00:12, Rowan Collins wrote:

> On 4 April 2018 22:44:56 BST, "Christoph M. Becker" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> While I most certainly don't like the sometimes explicit and/or
>> aggressive language used by Harald, I consider him a valuable bug
>> reporter nonetheless[1].
>>
>> [1]
>> https://bugs.php.net/search.php?search_for=&boolean=0&limit=30&order_by=&direction=DESC&cmd=display&status=All&bug_type=All&project=All&php_os=&phpver=&cve_id=&assign=&author_email=spam2%40rhsoft.net&bug_age=0&bug_updated=0&commented_by=
>
> I just sorted that list by status, and of 111 bugs, 27 are closed as "not a bug", 6 "won't fix", and 2 were detected as spam, including one with the intriguing title " PHP >= 5.6.0 is broken by definition".

However, 27 reports have been closed (I'm assuming they have been valid
and have been resolved), a few are analyzed or assigned, and there are a
lot of still open tickets, which may be valid or not.

> There may be some genuinely useful reports in there, and even some of the not-a-bugs might not be awful, but is it really a list we can't do without, for the sake of not scaring everyone else away?

Indeed, that is the question! (A follow-up question might be how to
block somebody from the bugtracker, since to my knowledge one could
state basically arbitrary email addresses).

Quoting spam2 at rhsoft dot net from https://bugs.php.net/76184:

| […] but i prefer the Torvalds style

Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi. :)

--
Christoph M. Becker

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