Stephen Reay
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: RFC - Array Of for PHP 7
November 07, 2017 12:10PM
> On 7 Nov 2017, at 17:21, Tony Marston <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I was around when that happened, so I know what I'm talking about.

I'm not going to get into the whole "it can be done in userland why do we need it in core" debate, because honestly that's a silly discussion to have when you don't have any planned implementation to discuss the merits of.

The only reason I wanted to respond was your last line, quoted above.

Being "around" when something happens means zero as far as credibility or knowledge.

The captain of the titanic was "around" when it sank.



--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Tony Marston
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: RFC - Array Of for PHP 7
November 07, 2017 12:50PM
"Stephen Reay" wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
>
>> On 7 Nov 2017, at 17:21, Tony Marston <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> I was around when that happened, so I know what I'm talking about.
>
>I'm not going to get into the whole "it can be done in userland why do we
>need it in core" debate, because honestly that's a silly discussion to have
>when you don't have any planned implementation to discuss the merits of.

So you are quite happy to see the language filled with complicated features
which do nothing but save a few keystrokes or lazy developers?

>The only reason I wanted to respond was your last line, quoted above.
>
>Being "around" when something happens means zero as far as credibility or
>knowledge.
>
>The captain of the titanic was "around" when it sank.

Irrelevant analogy. If you read
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduced_instruction_set_computer you will see
the advantage of getting rid of complex and specialised instructions and
concentrating on simple and general instructions.

--
Tony Marston


--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Alice Wonder
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: RFC - Array Of for PHP 7
November 07, 2017 01:00PM
On 11/07/2017 03:43 AM, Tony Marston wrote:

>
> Irrelevant analogy. If you read
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduced_instruction_set_computer you will
> see the advantage of getting rid of complex and specialised instructions
> and concentrating on simple and general instructions.
>

You will see some advantages.

There are also advantages to adding things.

Often it is easier for programmers to write secure code when the complex
stuff they could do in user land is already done for them.

Indeed I believe that is part of the design decisions in TLS 1.3.

It's not just that programmers are lazy and want fewer keystrokes, it is
more likely for the end developer to have fewer mistakes and properly
maintain his code when the complex stuff isn't his or her worry.

That's not the right solution all the time, but it also isn't the wrong
solution all the time.

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Tony Marston
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: RFC - Array Of for PHP 7
November 07, 2017 01:00PM
"Alice Wonder" wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
>On 11/07/2017 02:21 AM, Tony Marston wrote:
>
>>
>> Some things are so obvious that they do not need scientific proof.
>
>Some things that appear obvious are incorrect, especially when bias enters.
>Scientific proof brings human bias out of the equation, or at least reduces
>it.
>
>> For
>> example, in a motor vehicle the power-to-weight ratio is important as it
>> affects engine performance and fuel economy. In other words, for a given
>> engine size the lower the weight of the car and the better the fuel
>> consumption. The more weight you add the lower the performance. Your car
>> has a heater which you only use when it's cold. It also has an air
>> conditioner for when it's hot. It has windscreen wipers, and a motor,
>> for when it's raining. When the temperature is mild and it's not raining
>> it means that you are not using any of this equipment, yet you are still
>> carrying their weight, and this weight is affecting your car's
>> performance. I do not have to supply any figures as proof as the car
>> manufacturers keep telling us that cars that weigh less perform better,
>> which is why they try to reduce the weight of as any components as
>> possible.
>
>You then give an example for which every first year physics students has
>done experiments which use science to demonstrate it (namely demonstrating
>how weight impacts friction)
>
>Sorry but if something is obvious then it should be able to test in a
>scientific experiment.

Individuals do not need to provide proof of this claim as it has already
been made by the motor manufacturers who have provided their own proof. That
is why they spend fortunes trying to reduce the weight of every single
component in their cars.

It should also be obvious to every first year student that if a program
contains code that is rarely or never used then carrying around the "weight"
of that code has a detrimental effect. The code has a bigger footprint,
therefore takes up more memory and is slower to load. It also increases the
burden on those who maintain that code as they have to consider every piece
of code without knowing how often it is used.

--
Tony Marston


--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Am 07.11.2017 um 12:53 schrieb Tony Marston:
> It should also be obvious to every first year student that if a program
> contains code that is rarely or never used then carrying around the
> "weight" of that code has a detrimental effect

but you don#t get the basics right: you need to measure if that effect
is significant at all

> The code has a bigger
> footprint, therefore takes up more memory and is slower to load

slower to load don't matter, if the memory overhead is significant needs
to be measured

> It also
> increases the burden on those who maintain that code as they have to
> consider every piece of code without knowing how often it is used.

and *that* is not *your* problem - the whole discussion was about your
claim that it has a bad effect for everybody out there

GOD DAMNED: stop to ignore "it can even happen that due the
implementation other code paths which would not have been touched
otherwise may get optimized due refactoring and the end result can be
even faster in general" - that you ignored it multiple times proves that
you can't say anything which would not prove your claims about the
overall impact wrong

well, you always ignore anything but your opinion and the next step is
calling people "except if you are a nit-picking, anal retentive OCD
sufferer" because they don't follow your argumentation as it happened in
several threads


--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Levi Morrison
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: RFC - Array Of for PHP 7
November 07, 2017 04:10PM
The last 10 or so email messages in this thread have been pointless
bickering. Please stop. Thank you!

--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Tony Marston
Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: RFC - Array Of for PHP 7
November 08, 2017 10:50AM
wrote in message news:[email protected]
>
>
>
<snip>
>well, you always ignore anything but your opinion and the next step is
>calling people "except if you are a nit-picking, anal retentive OCD
>sufferer" because they don't follow your argumentation as it happened in
>several threads

The whole point of my argument is that I believe it is wrong to fill the
language with clever functions which do nothing but save a few keystrokes
for those developers who are too lazy to type out a few simple lines of
userland code. Filling the language with such bloat has a detrimental effect
on everybody who uses the language, and especially on the core developers
who have to maintain that bloat.

You stop telling me that you don't like my opinion and I will stop telling
you that I don't like your opinion.

--
Tony Marston


--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login